Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Growth Edge Leadership
Podcast. I am your host, Laurie Baedke and I am so excited that you’ve
joined me today. I have a remarkable and a really, really fun guest,
Dr. Jennifer Soung. Dr. Soung is a board certified there we go.
Dr. Soung is a board-certified dermatologist who currently practices in
Southern California, in Santa Ana, at Southern California Dermatology.
I’m gonna start over. I don’t like the way that that was going. I’m just
like, gotta get gotta get it all out here.
Hmm.
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Growth Edge Leadership
Podcast. I am your host, Laurie Bedke, and I am so excited to be joined
today by a friend and colleague, Dr. Jennifer Soung Dr. Soung is a board
certified dermatologist currently practicing at Southern California
Dermatology in Santa Ana. She specializes in medical dermatology and in
medical dermatology and clinical research.
She is the founder and director of clinical research at Southern
California Dermatology, where she conducts clinical trials in addition
to a thriving private practice. And she is also the founder of LEADderm
a CME course that sits at the intersection of leadership and community
and diversity in dermatology, which I am certain will be a topic of our
conversation today. But before we get there, Jen, welcome to the Growth
Edge. Thank you for joining me today.
Laurie I’m so excited to be here and before we get started, I just want
to say how much I adore you. Thank you for believing in LEADderm and the
vision from the very beginning. You probably remember
Yes, well go ahead.
You probably remember we met because I just randomly emailed you. I
heard your lecture on the Harvard Women’s Leadership Conference and just
fell in love with your message. Your friendship, encouragement, and
support have been incredible. And beyond the conference, I look forward
to your emails about leadership. They challenge me to think differently,
help me grow. So thank you for all the ways you’ve impacted my life and
mission.
You are so welcome. And it has been such a delight and a privilege to
get to know you as well. I love the gumption and initiative that you
took to reach out to me and invite me to be one of your speakers at the
inaugural LEADderm two years ago. And I am so excited to be rejoining
you next month for the third annual, but frankly, kind of on that topic
of initiative.
It is something that I admire so deeply because it’s that’s a page from
the playbook that I undertake. And it’s one of the reasons why I’ve had
many of the opportunities that I’ve had is just reaching out and
introducing myself and asking for opportunities. And so when you reached
out, it was just such a joy to to get to know you and then to learn
about your vision for LEADderm was a treat. I can’t wait to share that
with the listeners shortly. But maybe would you mind taking me back just
predating that vision and you’re bringing it to fruition, was there a s
a particular moment in your career where you realized that leadership
was going to be just as important as your clinical expertise?
Jen Soung (03:26.55) If I had to pinpoint the moment, I would say it was
taking the director role of clinical research in the Department of
Dermatology at UC Irvine and being the new psoriasis expert right after
finishing residency. It was my first real job and just 12 weeks after
having my second child, I was asked to rebuild an entire research
department. We had one coordinator, one study, and a really big vision.
Clinically, I felt prepared.
I was involved in clinical research since medical school and completed a
research fellowship. The leadership, I wasn’t so sure. I remember
wondering, am I qualified to do this? And looking back, I only recently
realized that this feeling wasn’t new. As the oldest of three children,
I had spent much of my life being handed responsibility and not being
taught how to lead. The responsibility came before the preparation and
I’m always someone who loves a challenge. So I told myself with a lot of
encouragement from my mentors, I jumped in, gave it everything I had,
and learned along the way. Now, med school and residency taught me how
to diagnose and care for patients, but no one taught me how to build a
team, inspire people, give difficult feedback or have hard
conversations, create a culture where everyone felt fulfilled going home
at the end of the day. So
I started to read books, listen to podcasts, and learn from one of my
earliest favorite leaders, Simon Sinek, who completely changed how I
viewed leadership. I realized leadership isn’t about having all the
answers or having the loudest voice. It’s about creating an environment
where people can thrive. And so while as a doctor we we become experts
in medicine, but there was like an entire set of skills I had never been
taught.
And I became fascinated with a side of medicine that I’d never been
exposed to. And that completely changed how I thought about my career.
That’s amazing. And I think that mirrors the journey that I’ve heard for
so many others. We don’t necessarily understand what we need to learn
until we come to identify and understand a gap, right? What delta exists
between who we are today and what today is demanding of us, or you know,
what skills we have, and then what skills we need to build to not just
survive but to thrive going forward. So
How did that really kind of translate to your ability to identify a gap
that existed in the market? You’re a dermatologist and you’ve attended a
number of CME courses over the course of your career, no doubt, but
you’ve now launched a weekend CME course and have been building a
convening and a community. What was it that you saw that helped you to
understand what others hadn’t?
And maybe hadn’t built or hadn’t addressed, and what gap did you see
that condemned that that kind of convinced you that LEADderm needed to
exist?
Well, first, Laurie, I never had a goal or had a vision of starting a
meeting. Cause there’s so many dermatology meetings. And I didn’t need
to. It felt like, okay, there were enough. But what made me realize that
there was a gap was as I continued to talk to my friends and colleagues
about how do we keep our staff happy? How do you find meaning in your
work? Or how am I gonna be a present parent?
manage manage the stress or even take time to exercise and be healthy,
my experience and questions weren’t unique. And many others had the same
challenges and struggles. I also noticed that many of the leadership
voices that we heard most often didn’t reflect the incredible diversity
of our profession. The examples and models of leadership we’ve been
exposed to often represented one version of what a leader could look
like.
So I started asking, how do we create a space where more people can see
themselves as leaders? Or where different backgrounds, experiences,
perspectives are included and recognized as strengths. And I kept
thinking the best place to start that conversation is at a conference
where we bring people together who have similar ideas and share these
conversations and stories and learn and grow together.
And what I realized that when I went to other meetings is that there’s
so many incredible people in dermatology. And the most meaningful
conversations I was having wasn’t at the session. It was when the
meeting was over, during dinner, in the hallways, or over coffee. And
there were moments when people these were the moments when people opened
up, shared challenges, and exchanged ideas. And I started wondering,
what if we build
a conference around these conversations. And that’s where LEADderm
really filled that gap. So it’s about teaching leadership skills and
creating a space where people can connect, learn from each other and
grow.
I love that. And I have a strong hunch that you had no idea what you
were really in for when you thought, okay, now I see this gap and I
understand this gap and I’ve got this inspiration. But starting a
conference from scratch is absolutely no small undertaking. What was it
that gave you the courage to take that leap?
You know, honestly, it’s people like you. As I talked to more and more
people in the healthcare leadership, my colleagues and friends, they
knew how I’ve been so passionate about these topics. And even in my own
life, as I even in my own journey, I saw that as I studied these
leadership skills and listened to more people, I became empowered and I
was learning so many things and
Growing as not only a physician, a parent, a leader, a mentor, a
collaborator. And I thought, my goodness, I want to share this. And on
top of that, seeing medicine change in so many different ways that I
wanted to make an impact beyond my own kind of clinic or patients. And
so it’s something that I became really passionate about.
Like you said, when I first started the conference, I had no idea where
this is going. And so after two conferences, I realized LEADderm
becoming so much more. It was something much deeper than I had imagined.
At the second conference, people were excited, not only because the
sessions were so different from a traditional dermatology meeting, we
had topics like negotiation, finding purpose in your work.
etiquette and professionalism in social media and work-life blend. And
what tea to and what people talked about afterwards wasn’t just about
the content. They talked about feeling inspired and energized. There was
this palpable energy in the room. Watching people connect, come up with
new ideas and support each other made me realize this was so much more
than leadership education. It made me feel like all the work was worth
it. And I also noticed
Something about the people who came to LEADderm. They were all curious.
They were willing to ask questions, reflect, grow, and become more
intentional. Not because they wanted another title, but because they
wanted to make a greater impact in the lives of people around them. So
for me, I’m wondering, I need your help, Lori. So the biggest surprise
for me the second year was actually Mr. Robert.
The biggest surprise for me, honestly, and I only connected the dots a
few months ago, was that leadership isn’t just about what we do. It’s
about who we’re becoming. It’s how we listen to people, how we treat
people, how we respond when things are hard, and how we help others. It
made me think, is it about human connection?
And this led me to the question I’ve been thinking about lately. Is
becoming a better leader really about becoming a better human? Now, I’m
still working through this idea because I keep coming back to the word
human, and I never want to tell someone else that they’re not being
human. But maybe it’s because so much of medicine today feels
dehumanizing. We have prior authorization, step therapy creating
barriers to care, the increasing corporatization of healthcare.
less physician autonomy and then technology and AI becoming part of more
and more decisions. So in that environment, I feel like leadership is
less about authority and influence and more about bringing back humanity
into medicine.
What I’m really curious. We haven’t had a chust chance to like talk
about this and you’re you’re hearing me you’re hearing how LEADderm is
evolving and I’m curious what you think, Laurie.
You know, I think you’re spot on, Jen. And that resonates deeply with
me. And it resonates because it is it’s compelling. And everything that
you just said, we are humans. And so much of the humanity has been
stripped out of medicine and the traditional healthcare experience. So
much of the beauty of humanity has been stripped out of our experiences
around us societally.
In a digital domain where people interact in ways that they would
probably never and perhaps shouldn’t interact in in-person interactions.
And it it proves so much of what I believe deeply about the fact that we
are rational individuals who have technical knowledge, but the things
that actually move us are emotional. We are emotional beings and our
minds are emotional.
And the beauty in life, in community, in connection, in the communities
in which we can learn and grow and be challenged, or to practice
self-compassion or or contribute compassion to others is human. And so I
you’re you’re preaching to the choir in me, but I also think this is
likely.
Why have you found a ready audience with your colleagues in dermatology
who want to come and learn about these things and share and talk about
these things so that they leave better formed or at least with their
curiosity piqued And if they don’t have the ideas fully baked and ready
to execute flawlessly.
They probably won’t ever because we are in fact human and fallibility is
a part of the equation, but they feel that it’s important that we
continue to pursue it, hence your use of the word becoming.
You almost read my mind and you’re speaking my love language. So and you
hit it on spot on. This year, as you know, I shared with you personally
that I am going through my own leadership coaching. And one of the
things I learned recently was not striving for perfection all the time.
And that was something I didn’t even realize I was doing. And so I
continued to think
And as LEADderm evolves, perhaps that when we become better humans, we
naturally become better physicians, colleagues, mentors, and partners.
And that’s ultimately how we build a better profession. So
interestingly, I chose this year’s LEADderm theme, Strong Ground, before
I fully understood why. I was creating a conference centered around
helping people becoming more grounded in their values, purpose,
relationships and
resilience and looking back, I think I was asking myself that same
question. And it’s the question I hope everyone leaves this year asking.
What grounds me? Because when we know what grounds us, we become more
intentional in how we live, how we connect, and how we care for others.
Oh man, I am very excited for my experience with you next month at the
the third offering of this course. But I I’m curious also, you’ve
whetted my appetite to wonder when you think about traditional medica
medical education, the the journey you experienced as a trainee, the one
that you’ve contributed to in your, you know, academic educator
as as a medical educator over time, what is something that physicians
aren’t systematically taught that ultimately has an outsized impact on
their careers in in medicine?
You know, Laurie I think it goes back to, if you will, human skills. I
think medicine does an incredible job of teaching us the science. And
remember, my background is rooted in the science. I’m a clinical
researcher. That’s my that’s that’s my background. And and and for me,
it answers so many questions so that I can better guide patients and
help patients leave live better lives and healthier lives.
And what I found over time, I had so many amazing treatments and tools,
and the research continues to grow, but in some ways I wasn’t delivering
impactful care. And it really came down to many other skills. How do we
navigate those difficult conversations? Or resident just asked me
yesterday, what happens when a parent tells you, well, I want this test?
And it may not be the right clinical decision.
So I have learned so many skills beyond now the science and treatment of
medicine. So skills like listening with curiosity instead of just
waiting to respond, building trust, not just with my patients, but with
my teams, communicating with clarity, figuring out conflict instead of
avoiding it. And most importantly, humility. I had a patient come in and
she said, wait, Dr. Soung, you know what?
You forgot one diagnosis that I really want to explore. And I used AI,
and she was really embarrassed that she used AI. I said, No problem,
tell me what it is. You’re right. We didn’t talk about that one
diagnosis. And so I always tell my patients, hey, we’re here to figure
it out together. Because in fact, what I’ve learned, I learn the most
from my patients. And often they give me clues to be a better doctor. So
for me, leadership skills.
Isn’t just for people with titles. Every physician is leading every day.
While we’re leading our patients, medical assistants, research teams,
our families, and often one another. It’s about how we show up. And that
was another big aha moment for me this year is that leadership is really
about a way of being in all areas of our lives. So to me, those human
skills are what transform.
Clinical expertise into meaningful leadership. And especially with AI
advancing so quickly in medicine, I literally just yesterday, as I was
talking to the patient, they were asking me some really hard questions.
And I said, hey, that’s not a medicine that we routinely come across in
dermatology. Let’s look it up together. And we’re gonna use AI. And
technology will continue to help us process that information, recognize
patterns, and make better decisions.
But people will always remember how we made them feel.
So I really believe that these human skills are what make us so
irreplaceable and I believe they’ll become even more important in the
years ahead.
That’s such a powerful example of where improving your leadership, not
necessarily just your clinical knowledge or expertise, makes a
meaningful difference. And it’s not that the latter is not important.
You’re a a phenomenally well-trained and capable physician, as are all
of your colleagues, but both the pace and velocity of change is very,
very challenging to keep up with. And also,
Just that ability to invite someone into a conversation and say, let’s
do this together. I have to imagine that that patient was probably felt
very seen and also really appreciated and respected your ability as a
physician to use the expertise that you have, but also to say, let’s see
if there’s something more that we should discover together. It’s it’s a
very human connection example that you shared.
And I think throughout my training, I always felt like as a physician, I
had to have the answer, right? But what leadership has taught me is that
you don’t have to be right all the time. And it’s okay to say, I don’t
know, or I was wrong. And those moments don’t diminish your credibility.
They often build trust.
They really do. And I actually last week’s podcast episode was on that
very topic. And I think as leaders, we do our trainees or earlier
careerists or any of our colleagues a disservice when we don’t
acknowledge vulnerably or humbly, I don’t always have the right answers.
Or I don’t always have the answers. I don’t always make the best call.
I might have to rethink, or I might have to apologize because I
misspoke, or your idea was better, or I made the wrong call. And those
are never easy moments. They’re not easy moments as leaders, but they
are so important because when we don’t do that, we do a disservice to
others that think that they have to present infallibility. And that’s
not possible.
Exactly.
And think about the pressure and the insecurity that exists within all
of us, if we’re all being honest, we all wrestle with that. But
especially for our junior colleagues, it is so important that we bring
that type of curiosity and humility and the courage and vulnerability to
say those things, knowing that it shouldn’t diminish our credibility or
our competence, but in fact, it should.
bolster it. And that is not perfect in its application, but it should be
something that we all strive for. Would you agree?
Absolutely. And in fact, I’ve learned personally is that when you’re
always striving for perfection, in fact, that can often intimidate or in
fact let what’s the best word? Alienate your team because they’re always
so afraid that they’re not doing enough or they’re not doing it right.
And then it defeats the purpose. Like my goal is to
Mm-hmm.
is to make an impact, a positive impact, empower the people around me to
do their best and to thrive. I always say at the beginning of my day, my
goal is that you come to work and we’re gonna have we’re gonna take
great care of patients. And you’re gonna feel fulfilled at the end of
the day that we did such a great job.
So I mean, I through the I’ve been I can’t believe I’ve been practicing
for 16 years and and so much of my background is rooted in great
clinical care and patients come to me with challenging, complex medical
skin conditions. And what I found is it’s so amazing that I love
continue taking care of these patients.
And it’s really I now see it more as partnering, almost like a parent.
As you know, I’m a mom of three and three teenagers, 14, 15, and 19. And
especially for patients with chronic autoimmune diseases, is I I say
often at the first visit, is I’m here just like I am as a parent to
coach, support, and guide you. And if you’re not ready to make a
decision today.
I’m here to provide you with the information and then we’ll revisit it.
And I’ve learned so much about whether it’s being a better parent or a
better physician or leader to my staff is it’s all the same skills.
I think that that is really amazing. And I think that I love that you
mentioned the personal domain as well, because I say all the time, so
much of leadership is is equally applicable in our professional domain
as it is in our personal domain. And when we’re thinking about the
importance of vulnerability and courage and that type of resonance
that’s necessary.
That is something that’s necessary for the humans that are your
patients. That’s necessary for the humans that are your offspring. And
as a mom, I am acutely aware that our children, especially as they
become, you know, teenagers and young adults, aren’t always wanting that
connection with mom or aren’t always wanting mom’s advice or direction.
But
that coaching, that connection and the and and and the trust that is
built and and the rapport there is something that if I’m playing the
long game is something that I’ll bet on time and again. But
I like that. I do have two teenage daughters now and they are ch quite
challenging and you’re so right. I like to look at it as the long game.
Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Okay, well, I our time is running short, but I
have two more questions that I want to tee you up to speak about
LEADderm and just how it lives. And I will say, I’m gonna include in the
show notes a link to the course because it’s coming up at the end of
August in Newport Beach, California. And I know registration will still
be open as of the publish date. And I would love, love, love for any of
the listeners.
Jen Soung (27:01.9) Excellent.
Yay. Yes.
who might be so inclined to join us for LEADderm the third at the third
edition to do so. But think about what it is that you know, when I
experienced the first LEADderm you had such a palpable and intentional
design. I could tell that you wanted to create a sense of community.
You’ve already alluded to that in our conversation today, but how
Did you execute on that? What was your vision for the gap that you’d
experienced? And how did you nudge that into the design of the course as
it’s delivered?
I love your question, Laurie because I’m so happy you noticed. And what
makes LEADderm different is that every part of the experience is
intentional. You’ve heard me use that word many times because I didn’t
want this to be just another conference. And to me, another conference
is people come, listen to lectures, collect information, and just leave.
I thought about every detail from choosing the hotel as our location to
the way we structure the program. I wanted to create a space that felt
different from the pace of everyday medicine. A place where people could
slow down, reflect, connect, and be open to change. So even something as
simple as sharing meals together.
was intentional. I love cooking and sharing good food is breaking bread
with people and creates a different kind of connection. Some of the most
meaningful conversations don’t happen during sessions. They happen over
coffee, dinner, or sitting next to someone you just met.
So, our goal is to intentionally create those opportunities for people
to share their stories. Because stories is how we understand each other.
And when we hear others have faced similar challenges, doubts, or
moments of uncertainty, they realize they aren’t alone. And at the end
of the day, I hope people leave LEADderm with new skills and new ideas
and with something deeper, a sense of belonging, new relationships, and
a feeling that they are part of a community that supports.
them. And to me, that’s the heart of LEADderm because medicine is
because medicine can be so isolating. And so creating a space where
people feel connected and reminded why they chose this path is really
the heart of LEADderm.
That makes me so excited to get back to be a part of it again. Can you
tell me my last question is just what stories, speaking of stories, have
attendees shared with you after the first two conferences that affirm
that you’re building exactly what medicine needed?
Wow, so many. And one of my colleagues even told me I should term it the
leaderm legacy. And so, gosh, one of my favorite was a colleague telling
me, Thank you so much. That was so needed. I have been practicing for
fifteen years. And after this weekend, I feel refreshed, invigorated,
and energized that the next fifteen years of my career are going to be
even more amazing. I’ve had other colleagues now become
educators of a conference or become faculty at another institution. I’ve
made new connections where people are collaborating on new ideas. I
brought new people to the stage and uncovered new talents that haven’t
been recognized prior. So I think the power of connection and
collaboration is so amazing. And
Other things that I want to highlight this year is collaborating among
all healthcare providers. So this is a very intentional message of
collaboration amongst physicians, DOs, NPPAs, and all of our educators
and pharmaceutical partners in our industry. And our common goal is to
improve the healthcare of our community. And so I think it’s so
powerful.
intentionally coming to a meeting and having these conversations and
creating this space to really reflect and grow together.
I love it. I can’t can’t wait. Okay, our time is up, but I have two
quick rapid fire questions I would love to close with. First is what’s
one thing that you’re still working on as a leader, Jen?
Sounds good.
wow, so many things. So when you tell me one thing I’m working on, I
would still say I’m still refining my personal mission statement and
learning about myself. A really hard question that I’m almost I say hard
because I’m almost avoiding it. Is what do I stand for? Is what my
leadership coach asked me to think about. And sometimes I’ll just open
my
laptop and I’ll stare at a blank screen and I’m like, I’m not sure where
to start. And there’s certain things I do know for sure that I stand
for. And maybe I wonder if there’s even something deeper than that. It’s
just surface level. So that’s been tricky for me. And what I’m realizing
is what I stand for, what I believe in, what my core values are, are all
connected in all areas of my of of my life.
And so sometimes it can feel overwhelming. And so this week has been
really nice. I’ve I’ve been an empty nester. My two daughters went to
Japan on a trip for two weeks. And I have and my son has been doing a
summer internship. So it’s giving me some really good quality time to be
by myself and carve out time to reflect on this. And I think it’s so
important going back to my theme of strong ground, is that
Once I have that mission statement or understand what my my purpose is,
I can move forward with clarity. Especially with something so big like
LEADderm I get so much feedback all the time. And also a person who
likes to take everyone’s feedback. So I’m like, great, thank you. I’m
gonna incorporate that almost to a point where I’m trying to people
please everyone. So
Thank you.
I would probably say that that is also something I’m working on so that
I s so my mission is clear and and when I face tricky or hard situations
and someone tells me, Hey, I don’t like when you do that, or is that I
don’t take it so personally because I know exactly what I stand for.
Carry on because that is such a noble pursuit. And it is a messy one, as
you’ve acknowledged. It’s it’s difficult to excavate. it is challenging
to prioritize the time that’s necessary to give that clarity. And it is
also something that if we do not pursue it, we can find ourselves a
knockoff version of someone else’s life. And
Jen Soung (34:20.92) Yeah.
That’s not sustainable for us either. And that’s my deep belief. And so
I I want you to feel seen in the fact that I am, and I’m guessing every
other listener is right there with you in the fact that we’re all
pursuing greater clarity over our mission or our purpose or where we can
create the greatest impact. Last question before we close is just finish
this sentence. Great leadership is.
I love that.
I think that hope is practical and I’m a very practical person. And
whether it’s with my patients or my teams, it’s very distinct from
optimism. And because I think that not only in medicine but in our
society, there’s a lot of uncertainty. And especially when circumstances
are hard.
It’s about helping people believe that there is a path forward. And I’m
not gonna say it’s gonna turn out all rosy and perfect. However, it’s
believing that we’re gonna get through this and we’re gonna move
forward. So I love that concept of hope.
I love that. And that mirrors for my listeners who have probably heard
recent episodes where I’ve mentioned that hope is something that Gallup
has said very recently in new Research This Year is the single most high
need of followers. Every one of us wants hope. And it’s easy to pe to
play the cynical card and say that that’s false optimism or that’s
performative. But frankly, if we’re honest with ourselves, we all.
want to believe that we can be better and the world can be better. And
so I love that definition. And Jen, I just so appreciate your joining me
for this conversation. I’m gonna share notes, links in the show notes to
the LEADderm Conference site. If anyone listening would like to join us
in Newport Beach at the Pendry the weekend of August 29th and 30th, 28th
and 29th.
twenty ninth to thirtieth.
August twenty-ninth thirtieth, twenty twenty six, please do. and I will
also f include links to individuals so that they can find your practice
website and and follow your work. I will be looking forward to sharing
an amazing and exciting informative weekend with you in a couple of
weeks. Thanks so much, Jen.
Thank you, Laurie for having me. And it’s always a joy talking to you. I
learned so much from you.
All right I will hit stop
