Laurie Baedke (00:03.01)
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Growth Edge Leadership Podcast. I am your host, Laurie Baedke and today's conversation is a fantastic one. It sits at the intersection of strategy and culture and leadership courage, all things that you know I love to speak on. My guest is Nicole Jern...
My guest is Nicole Jones-Gerbino, president of PBS Radiology Business Experts. Nicole brings more than two decades of leadership experience across physician groups, consulting, and complex health systems. Her work spans practice management, revenue cycle strategy, regulatory navigation, and operational leadership. She's also a national speaker and the creator of Owning It, a leadership platform that's focused on ownership.
raising the energy in rooms and helping leaders to move organizations forward. And I have to tell you, I first met Nicole at a conference last spring, summer, and her energy was what was first magnetic in attracting me to her. And I've enjoyed a couple of collaborations we've had since. And this conversation today, I've just been kind of vibrating getting ready for it in the most positive way because
Nicole brings so much magnetism in her day to day. What I'm most excited to explore today is Nicole's perspective on something a little bit deeper and something a little bit more important. How leaders build organizations where strategy and culture are aligned, truly aligned, where employees are very valued and where flexibility fuels creativity rather than just chaos. But
That's enough of my voice. I would love to pass the mic to you. Nicole, welcome to the show. Fill in the blanks and offer a little color commentary to the listener.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (01:55.935)
Well, thanks, Laurie. I echo your enthusiasm. I am very thrilled to be here and to talk with you. And our first conversation where we started talking about different collaborations actually felt like we were on our own personal podcast during that time because we were just sharing so many different things in leadership and our time in healthcare and just leading well in organizations. So I'm so excited to be here with you and with your listeners, with your audience as well. And looking forward
to diving in to strategy, culture, people, and leading well in healthcare because that is not for the faint of heart right now. And so, you I think we have so many pressures that other industries do not face. And so I'm excited to dive into some of those things with you.
Laurie Baedke (02:46.37)
Yeah. Well, let's go ahead and dive right on into the deep end. I would love for you to really kind of introduce yourself to the listener. You have such a unique and powerful story ascending from an upbringing on welfare to the boardrooms of very influential organizations. Tell a little bit of that story. It's not a three hour podcast, so we can't get the full version, but tell us a little bit about your journey and how it's shaped your leadership philosophy.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (03:16.991)
Sure, well, my journey has really been rooted in the idea of really a couple of different things. First of all, leadership really begins when responsibility shows up. Oftentimes for some of us that's earlier than expected and responsibility shows up and you decide that you're going to carry it and that you're going to try and carry it well. And, you know, I also really try to embrace my story. For a long time I really lived, you talked about this journey, right? From welfare to the board.
room and for a lot of times I felt like I had a life over here in my past and then a life over here in you know the last 20 years or so and when I started to really be able to connect with people even more was when I realized that those stories from my past and the upbringing and some of those experiences they weren't just things that shaped me they were actually things that when I began to share them connected me with other people and you know gave that perspective and
And also help people to understand one of my core principles, is, you don't get to choose your circumstances, Laurie, but you get to choose what you do with them. You don't get to choose your beginnings, but you get to do to choose what you're going to do with those beginnings and where you're going to go from there. And, you know, I love to use that to not only help other people find their potential, but to really help people see that that potential is limitless, whether that's growing a company, whether that's growing personally, whether that's
Laurie Baedke (04:26.296)
Indeed.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (04:46.871)
and leading professionally or in any circle of influence that you may have.
Laurie Baedke (04:53.356)
I appreciate that so much. And I think as you talk about the perspective that you've gained from that, it's such an important reflection of just who you are at your core, but it also reinforces something that I believe deeply, which is, we are all going to face adversity and it may come in myriad different ways, Hardship is really not a matter of if, but it's a matter of when for almost everyone.
And for leaders that choose to learn from it and let it shape them for the good, almost always it results in a deeper or richer understanding or desire to pursue understanding of others. And it kind of results in a heightened empathy. And so much of that, you're describing kind of how that shaped your leadership philosophy,
I'd be curious if that resonates with you and how have you seen that play out for you or how have you maybe turned around and coached and mentored and developed leaders around you because I know that that's something you're incredibly passionate about also.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (06:03.839)
Sure, well, those early experiences, they really did shape how not just I understand responsibility, but how I see people. And at the end of the day, when we talk about leadership, it is about people.
We don't choose a company, we choose a boss, right? We don't choose a company, we choose the people that we work with. So, you for me, that responsibility, as you said, it showed up in my life really a long time before any leadership titles ever did. I grew up in severe poverty, navigated homelessness and instability as a child. And I started working pretty full time as a, at a pretty young age. And I was also making healthcare decisions for a mentally ill and a terminally ill parent at that time before I could even legally
vote. So when responsibility shows up like that you learn very quickly that waiting for any kind of perfect condition is not an option and that perspective really still influences the way that I lead today.
So, you know, I see people differently as a result of that. When I was growing up, there were lot of moments where the kindness of other people changed the direction of my day. And even some of those people changed the direction of my life. A teacher who noticed something, a family or friends, families who opened their homes to me, people that saw potential in me when my circumstances didn't look very promising. And those things stayed with me. And so as a leader now, for me, one of the most important parts of the job is
helping people see what they're capable of becoming.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (07:33.961)
People are rarely going to rise because you push them. They're going to rise because you saw them and because you met them where they were and you believed in them. And so at that same time, growing up with that level of instability also made me value standards and structure. So when things are chaotic, consistency and having clear expectations matter. Process can calm chaos. And so the way that I lead tends to combine those things. Care for people, belief in their potential.
caring enough for them not to leave them the same way I found them but leave them better and having clear standards about our work and what those expectations are. And when people understand what our mission is and they know that someone believes in them they generally rise to meet those moments.
Laurie Baedke (08:22.698)
Yeah, man, I love that so much. And there are just, mean, you are dropping pearls and each one of them, I could queue you up for 10 minutes on, but I'd really love to kind of talk about strategy and culture because you lead an organization and you have a background in strategy and you came to your current role as the president of the organization from the chief strategy officer, correct?
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (08:47.325)
I did, yes.
Laurie Baedke (08:48.62)
Yeah, so tell me a little bit about, mean, people hear these terms, you know, culture eats strategy for lunch, strategy drives results, but in reality, culture often determines whether or not the strategy can be operationalized or executed against. So from your vantage point, where do leaders most misunderstand the relationship between the two, strategy and culture?
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (09:13.469)
Yeah, well, I've been very fortunate because I've gotten to experience the strategic perspective, both, you know, on an academic medical center, health system side, in private practice, and then also within our own company. you know, I think some lot of common threads across those different types of organizations. And I think one of the biggest misunderstandings is thinking that strategy and culture are separate conversations. Strategy is what you're intending to do.
Culture is determining whether anyone actually does it. And organizations, we've all been there and seen this. They spend months refining their strategy. And there's a strategic plan, and there are goals, and there are strategy employees. And the organization builds the plan, and builds the metrics, and builds out the roadmap. And then that strategy sometimes will stall, because the behaviors in the organization don't support it.
So the culture on the other hand is gonna show up in more practical ways. Who gets promoted? What behavior are you tolerating? What does your leadership team allow? What do they value?
Laurie Baedke (10:14.158)
Mm.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (10:21.073)
And how do leaders deal with problems? Are they direct or are they managing around them? And you can use feel those things really quickly when you walk into any kind of leadership room. Sometimes that strategy is really clear, right? But the room can be hesitant. People might know what needs to be addressed, but nobody wants to say it out loud. So I find that most organizations don't have a strategy problem. They don't lack strategy. They lack the courage to deal with what that strategy exposes.
And so in our work with physician groups and healthcare organizations, we're often seeing leaders recognize something isn't working, but they hesitate to address it directly. I mean, we know in healthcare, in the business of healthcare, and of course, even on the clinical side of healthcare, there are so many things in those ecosystems that can fail, can have a broken process, can have an issue. And, you know, at PBS, we use a really simple phrase. We like to say, put the fish on the table and problems move faster when they're visible.
So it's a wonderful thing when you feel that momentum and you can feel that people are encouraged to be authentic and transparent and to discuss issues. And it doesn't mean we can always do something about an issue. It doesn't mean everybody's sole purpose is to just bring up the problems. But strategy moves when people are willing to deal with reality and then take ownership for what happens next.
Laurie Baedke (11:44.94)
And I think oftentimes the bridge between the strategy and an employee having, you know, that responsibility to own it is really in clear role expectations. And that is one of the responsibilities of leadership that often gets dropped because it is, it's murky, there are matrix reporting relationships in organization, and then a very crystal clear and even very compelling and viable strategy.
doesn't turn up into culture because people don't know who's really responsible for it. And the result is, you know, kind of this perpetuated mediocrity or just opacity in organizations. Would you agree?
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (12:28.655)
I absolutely agree. It's part of why I named my leadership content platform owning it because I really feel like when I look at
what I value the most as a leader and what I value the most as a contributor to a team is the ability to own a challenge, to approach that as though I have agency and influence to be able to solve it. Whether I'm the president of that company, whether I'm the chief strategy officer, whether I have ownership in the company, or whether I am a valued member of the team in some other role.
And we, when we as leaders encourage that in our teams and not just encourage it, but push it to an extent. know, some people have come from organizations where don't speak up. know, they, people didn't want to hear what they had to say, or they were not encouraged to take agency over a problem or to treat something as though it were their own. You know, that's a hard habit to break when you've been ostracized for that or when you've been maybe
Laurie Baedke (13:28.77)
Mm-hmm.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (13:32.983)
you know, penalized for that in the past. I really want people to see, you know, this as you, have agency and influence over a lot of things in your life, in your workplace, and, know, in whatever business you're approaching. And when people start to have that kind of ownership and agency, but the rooms that we're in changed dramatically.
Laurie Baedke (13:54.87)
Yeah, agreed. You mentioned the word chaos a while ago and it was among those, you know, nine or 11 or 12 pearls that you were dropping off. But I think chaos is something that it's abundant. It's all around us. It's very, very present often and in our organizations, but we see it around us societally as well. And if we're not very careful, it just starts to feel normal. Would you agree? Talk a little bit about chaos and how to
quell it so that you can in fact start to have that type of agency that lets you take responsibility for some of the things that can really start to drive meaningful outcomes.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (14:35.827)
Yeah, I think it's a wonderful question. I think I often think of the terms chaos and busy.
as somewhat relevant and they tend to be used interchangeably. When we feel too busy, we feel chaotic. When there's chaos in our organizations, we feel as though we're always busy. And, Laurie, the reality is we are always going to be busy. know, problems are opportunities. If we don't have problems to tackle in healthcare, most of us probably won't have jobs. It will just be the doctors because everything else will be taken care of, right? So I look at problems and to an extent chaos as
Laurie Baedke (14:47.299)
Mm.
Laurie Baedke (14:56.952)
Thank
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (15:12.311)
a healthy thing and something that's expected. And, you know, I think when we look at how to tackle maybe that chaotic feeling or that feeling of busyness, it's looking at, what are we feeling is chaotic? What are we busy doing? And, you know, I think for us as healthcare leaders, we can spend entire days in meetings, responding to emails, solving these small operational issues, and we can feel very productive, right? We can feel
that we're serving, can feel that we're doing all the right things and incredibly busy, but then we're avoiding the few decisions that are going to actually move the organization forward or actually benefit our patients, benefit people. And, you know, and I think this is, that's the time I'm going to shift just a little bit because I feel like that's the time when you're chaotic and you're busy that you can shift into mediocrity.
Laurie Baedke (16:05.965)
Mm-hmm.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (16:07.009)
And I see that creep in a lot when leaders start managing around problems instead of addressing them. Nobody walks in saying, I hope our standards drift today, or I'd like to postpone all these conversations. But people start accepting things that maybe they would have addressed earlier when they're feeling in a chaotic situation or when they're feeling that busy. And the team notices.
Laurie Baedke (16:29.57)
Yes. Yes.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (16:32.755)
the organization notices. So I think, I believe strongly that standards are one of the most clear and kind and respectful things you can give a team. And having high standards is not something to apologize for because that's how we sort out. Well, what is, what is chaos versus the normal busy of our industry? And how do we decide what we approach first and what we tackle first? And that's where to me that
process part comes in, but it always has to go back to understanding what are our standards? What are our non-negotiables? What are we not going to accept?
Laurie Baedke (17:09.134)
Yeah. Well, and that is where standards can be such an important principle or element or practice within an organization because culture shifts so subtly, but so insidiously. And all of a sudden chaos has become the norm or all of a sudden we went through a big construction project or we went through a big conversion project or we went through a big epidemic or pandemic and whatever it is that resets the norm.
And now all of a sudden it feels very pervasive and it has become what we tolerate unless there is a consistent true up and an intentional way to then objectively reset to a standard or an expectation.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (17:57.717)
Absolutely. think, you know, the other thing that helps me a lot when I'm trying to frame out standards and expectations is, know, one of the core principles that I try to live by, and I'm always learning on this, and I'm always learning ways to do better, but it's raising the energy in the room. And I read that somewhere years ago, and it just stuck with me. You sometimes you get a phrase in your head and you go, cannot get this out of my head. And, you know, and so I really thought about that because to me, raising the energy,
believes or means that we're shifting what people believe is possible in that moment. And when you're raising standards or you're defining standards, people have to believe they're possible. And even more importantly, they have to understand why. Well, why are we changing this? Why are we shifting direction? know, navigating change is one of the biggest conflicts that organizations see. And if we can go back to shifting what people believe is possible and the understanding and the enthusiasm,
of why we're doing it that way. It's such an important thing. And energy to me isn't just about bringing some enthusiasm, right? Because then everybody would do that. I like to say what I lack in talent, make up for in enthusiasm. But it's also bringing clarity, it's bringing direction. And it's thinking about the rooms that maybe have shaped us, right? So all of the rooms that we walk into can teach us something about people, about pressure, and the way that we care.
those rooms as leaders really matters. We don't want to allow confusion or avoidance or low standards to linger because then the room's going to settle there. And if we can bring that ownership that we talked about, you know, it really does help with the momentum and it changes the conversation.
Laurie Baedke (19:30.85)
Yes.
Laurie Baedke (19:46.274)
Yeah, well, and I think this is a perfect segue to really focus on the people part of the equation, because our cultures are comprised of our people and people are human beings. They need to feel seen. They need to feel valued. They need to feel like they belong and they respond to energy. They are very hungry for a compelling vision or purpose. And absent that,
it is really hard for any human being, even the most disciplined and motivated and capable human to pull their best tip top level of capacity or performance out of themselves. so, I mean, here is, there's this, there's this divide that I see. I'm curious if you agree where so many people, so many organizations say that people are their greatest asset, right? But in reality, people often experience something very
different. Would you agree?
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (20:48.297)
That completely. And I've been that person. And, you know, I think, I think some of it goes back to the culture, you know, some of it goes back to the values of the organization, and I will not pretend to have it perfectly or to have it all figured out. You know, and my goal is always when I talk on one of these podcasts, or if I speak on something, I don't ever want someone that works for my company to look and go, well, that's not what I'm living when I'm there.
Laurie Baedke (21:13.053)
Mm-hmm.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (21:13.341)
So we try to do everything we can to get it right. And I think when we think about valuing people operationally, and we think about the experience people are having, you know, at the end of the day, my
My goal is not neutrality. It's I want, I want to make people feel inspired to work somewhere, proud to work somewhere, excited to work. So maybe a little, maybe a little nervous, right? Cause a little nervous is a good thing. You know, it means we care when we're a little nervous about something. It means we actually care about what we're putting out. care about our work. And, you know, I feel like it doesn't matter if it's healthcare leadership. doesn't matter if it's some other industry, but the common theme I only see is people
feel valued when they feel seen, when the expectations are clear, not when the expectations are low, but when they're clear and when we address things instead of allowing dysfunction to continue or things not to be said. And, you know, for me, I look at it, I try to look at any room I'm in or any conversation I'm in is what isn't being said.
What is not being said right now? Is someone uncomfortable? Can we address it? And I think the other thing that we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about with helping people feel valued is allowing poor performance or poor behavior to go unaddressed. I mean, how many times have we all probably sat in rooms and heard somebody say something that didn't land right? It was rude, it was unkind, or it was just plain inappropriate and...
You know, I think when people know that you've got, you're in their corner, when people know that the leaders you're going to hire in your organization are going to be in their corner.
Laurie Baedke (22:53.538)
Mm-hmm.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (22:58.927)
and want what's best for them and want to invest in them and their potential, your best people will know that and they will see that. And valuing our teams means we're investing in their growth and it also means we're standing behind them. We have a saying in our company, we don't work with jerks. And it's so simple, but it's so true. There have been contracts we've walked away from or prospective clients we've turned down because I can tell if they're
behaving in this manner on a phone call when they first met me as an owner of the organization, they're not going to treat my people well.
And that is something I think when you look at the way people are going to experience your company, you have to look at it from a standpoint of your management team, your clients, your customers, and the team members are going to work with day in and day out because that's going to be that experience. You can say one thing in an organization, but if you're not bringing in people that have those same values and know how to ensure people feel seen, then your culture and the way that people feel valued is going to go downhill quickly.
Laurie Baedke (24:06.338)
Yeah, I agree. And I'm curious from your perspective, what are some of the really courageous leadership conversations that organizations are avoiding right now that they desperately need to have?
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (24:20.019)
Yeah, I think why it's interesting. just wrote an article about this concept that I've been exploring, which is, the blending of new talent versus legacy talent on teams. And I think, I think because that's navigating change, it's navigating performance. And it's also at times just navigating new ways of doing things. You know, that's the time where I think people get the most uncomfortable when you say we're going to change something, right? Some of the most uncomfortable words for anyone to hear in the English language or we're going to make
these changes and immediately it goes to how does this impact me? How does this impact what I deliver? How does this impact the way that I see myself? And, you know, I was just at a conference with this wonderful speaker, Eliza Connor, and she was talking about mindset. And a lot of it was around how we perceive ourselves and respond to our circumstances. It's wonderful discussion around change. But I think, you know, when we are when we are really, really thinking about where organizations need to most tackle,
Most organizations are growing. mean, in healthcare organizations are either growing or they're kind of dying on the vine here. So, you you have to think about any organization growing. It's going to have new people coming in. It's going to have people that have wonderful tribal knowledge and clear understanding of why things have been done in a certain way to that point. And then you're going to have this new talent coming in and they're going to have things that they bring from areas where, you know, other areas where they've worked things that they've seen work well. And I see
one of my biggest roles as helping to create an environment where that is integrated and those teams are working well together. And what's interesting for me is, you know, being in my current company for seven years now, now I'm shifting into that legacy seat. So I'm watching myself and I'm looking at how am I responding? You know, am I?
Am I protecting sacred processes? And I think that's one of the hardest conversations to have. I don't see a lot of people exploring it at an organizational level. So that's why I think that is really one of the most toughest, tough things for leaders to tackle is, you know, can't just put new talent in and have your, you know, existing great people that you value and go here, guys, have fun. It's got to be intentional.
Laurie Baedke (26:34.958)
Yes, and it happens within an ecosystem where processes and protocols and pathways need to be upheld. Importantly so, but we have to be re-engineering and rethinking and shifting and evolving the way that we do that from the process perspective and from the human perspective. And so I'm curious what you think if you're looking ahead 10 years or 15 years,
What do you think is going to distinguish the healthcare organizations that are thriving a decade or more down the road compared to the ones that are struggling?
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (27:15.753)
Well, it's a good question. mean, I think there's always a conversation of technology and AI and all of these things, but rather than going down that.
that route, I'm just going to say the organizations that are going to thrive in this complex environment are going to be the ones that make decisions faster and they build their leadership capacity across the organization. Because when we look at the advances in technology and advances in AI, it is really shifting from task-based focus to and task management to discernment and judgment and being able to continue to build our capacity. And when I say leadership capacity, I
Laurie Baedke (27:32.824)
Mm.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (27:54.695)
everybody thinking as leaders and thinking as influencers in their organization. And the companies that are going to do well will be the ones that invest in developing leaders at every level, instead of relying on a hierarchical model to manage complexity. And I think that is really the thing for me is how do we help people continue to rise? Because the thing I always come back to, and it applies in healthcare because we are so complex and we are changing.
is if you don't like change, you're gonna like irrelevance even less. And so the organizations that thrive over the next 10 years in healthcare are gonna be the ones that embrace that, embrace change and train and coach their people to be adaptable.
Laurie Baedke (28:40.13)
Yeah. I love that. Okay. Our time is running so short and I knew it would. This has felt like three minutes so far, but are you open for maybe a quick lightning round? I've got about five questions. I'd love to fire your way. Mostly leadership philosophy related.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (28:57.181)
Yeah, absolutely. Let's go.
Laurie Baedke (28:59.124)
Okay, Nicole, so you have over two decades of leadership experience and healthcare executive leadership experience. What leadership belief did you maybe hold earlier in your career that you've changed your mind about?
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (29:11.507)
Yeah, I would say that I had to be the most prepared one in the room, that I had to have all the answers walking into the room. what I've learned is you can walk in, you can embrace things, and you can learn and ask the right questions. And that will serve you a lot better.
Laurie Baedke (29:20.152)
Okay.
Laurie Baedke (29:30.02)
Love it. Okay, what's a leadership trait that healthcare needs more of? Ooh, love it, love it. How about a leadership myth that needs to die?
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (29:33.969)
Ownership.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (29:41.257)
that leadership is about control.
Laurie Baedke (29:44.622)
Indeed. What's the best leadership advice you've ever received?
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (29:51.123)
The people in front of you are the work.
Laurie Baedke (29:55.35)
Interesting. Last question. What's one leadership habit that drives your performance personally?
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (30:03.643)
I have to, in order to feel that I'm doing what I need to do, I have to identify the actions every day, just a few that are going to move my organization forward and take them. And I need that tangible, tangible movement. take action. History favors those that have a bias for action. The future, you know, that's how you're going to get through in the future is have a bias for action. Just do it, do the thing.
Laurie Baedke (30:21.186)
Yep.
Laurie Baedke (30:26.976)
Indeed. I've loved this conversation, Nicole. Thank you for sharing your energy with me and the listeners. This work of aligning strategy and culture and people is super complex and way easier said than done, but it's also where the most meaningful leadership impact happens. So thank you for joining me.
Nicole Jones-Gerbino (30:45.993)
Thank you so much, Laurie. It's been wonderful to talk with you.
Laurie Baedke (30:51.778)
All right.
