Laurie Baedke (00:02.488)
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Growth Edge Leadership Podcast. I am your host, Laurie Baedke and I am so delighted to bring back a prior guest to talk about her amazing new book. This conversation is one that touches every single one of us. It's grief. Grief is universal, but it's something that many of us feel very deeply unprepared to navigate. My guest is Dr. Joann Schaefer.
a family physician, a former tenured associate professor at Creighton University School of Medicine, Nebraska's longest serving and first female chief medical officer and former executive vice president and chief medical officer at Blue Cross Blue Shield of Nebraska. After a remarkable career spanning clinical medicine, public health leadership, and the corporate sector, Joann now works as a healthcare consultant and executive coach. Her newest book, The Unspoken Side of Grief, explores something we rarely talk about openly.
what people who are grieving truly wish others understood. With honesty and compassion and a scientist's lens, she offers insight into grief, the many forms loss can take and the simple but profound and the simple but powerful ways we can show up for one another in life's hardest moments. Joann, I am so grateful that you're here to have this conversation. Welcome back to the Growth Edge Leadership Podcast.
Joann Schaefer MD (01:26.771)
Thank you so much for having me, Laurie.
Laurie Baedke (01:29.626)
I am just so impressed. I should not be surprised at saying that because I've known you for a long time now and have been impressed by all of your work. But tell us a little bit about this book. I'm holding up my copy. It's very annotated and noted. That's what guides my questions today. But this book, The Unspoken Side of Grief, what inspired you to write this book?
Joann Schaefer MD (01:30.847)
Thank
Joann Schaefer MD (01:56.511)
Well, many things, many things in my career and most notably probably the first loss that I had major in my life was the murder of my best friend. And that was about 35 years ago. And it was just navigating her loss. And then as a physician sitting beside so many people having experienced loss.
And I really began to realize how much we don't talk about it. And when people talk about it, they often say the wrong thing. And I noticed also that there was a nuance around grief, that it's very different to lose a child versus a spouse, et cetera. And there's very little discussion out there in the literature about that. And so over time I was like, I am going to write a book about this someday. So I finally did it.
Laurie Baedke (02:46.508)
I love that so much. mean, obviously throughout your personal life and then your medical career, you have walked alongside so many individuals, families, loved ones during some of life's most difficult moments. What have you observed at the bedside and in that journey that others might not have seen?
Joann Schaefer MD (03:08.498)
Well, I noticed that it's very different when you're at the bedside of a grieving mom and dad who just lost their three year old child versus someone who's really lived their life and you're sitting next to a widow who has lost their husband of 50 years. And how they experience that grief is very different and how you can come along someone is very different as well. And the things that you can say to comfort them.
how you can sit and deeply listen to them is different and that nuance needed to be spoken about.
Laurie Baedke (03:45.634)
No, that's so true. And I know just how much work goes into writing a book manuscript. And so I have to imagine it wasn't without pause that you decided to kind of throw your shoulder into this rock. But was there a particular moment where you realized that grief needed a stronger voice or needed this really full, multifaceted exploration?
Joann Schaefer MD (04:10.896)
It was really the cumulative experiences that I had, you know, hearkening back to when my best friend was murdered, I noticed that no one wanted to talk about murder, but I thought it was just about her murder. But what I discovered as I went through the next 30 years, it was really no one wanted to talk about grief. And yes, talking about her murder was a small bit of it, but...
Laurie Baedke (04:24.014)
Mm-hmm.
Joann Schaefer MD (04:38.532)
I wanted to talk about it. I didn't want to forget her. She had children and I wanted to learn about stories that maybe I wasn't privy to and I wanted to talk, but others didn't and they didn't always know what to say. And so being in the exam room with other patients, I noticed this. so when, you five years when I started writing the book at the beginning of the pandemic, I started interviewing many, many people and I just found
There were many things that were common, but there were also many things that were different. like I said, I had searched for a book like this that was out there and I couldn't find any. So I thought this is how I'm going to write the book.
Laurie Baedke (05:20.684)
Yeah, let's let's stay there for a moment, Joann, because one thing that your book does really, really beautifully is to acknowledge that grief isn't limited to just one type of loss. So talk about the structure that you chose for the book that digs into the direct nuance of different types of loss, those different categories, kind of share them, list them, perhaps for the listener and then
talk about what you learned through your qualitative research and through your preparation to write this manuscript.
Joann Schaefer MD (05:55.827)
Yeah, so I took my experiences as a physician. I took my experiences from the state where I dealt with many tragic losses. And then I started interviewing and I chose to do loss of spouse, loss of child, loss of sibling, loss of best friend and loss of pregnancy because those were major categories that I had a lot of experience with with patients. And again, like I said,
in all the different varieties of my career. And what kept coming up and what went to the title was the unspoken side of grief. Because what people were telling me were all the different things that they didn't speak of with people, but they really wished everybody knew. And so there's where I found these things that were in common, but there were very things that, very many things that were nuanced and different. So.
That's how I broke up the chapters in the first half of the book. And then the second half of the book was all the wisdom that was gained from these interviews, the commonalities, the things that they wish people knew, the things that they wish people didn't say, the things that they found really helpful that they wish people also knew. So that's kind of how I structured the book.
Laurie Baedke (07:11.596)
Yeah, maybe we can't go through all of them, but maybe share one particular example that is unique to a particular type of loss.
Joann Schaefer MD (07:23.804)
Well, one thing that I really drove home in the book in several different areas with a loss of a child, for instance, sometimes when there's an unexplained death of a child and you don't have a diagnosis or a cause of death, there's a lot of investigation that happens. And sometimes, you know, the district attorney is involved or the county attorney is involved. Obviously, there may be an autopsy. There's child protective services and is involved.
trying to figure out the cause of the death of the child. And when that is occurring, the family who has other children in the house is very afraid of losing their other children or having them removed into protective custody. Now, this is a very scary time for parents. And during that time, they are told, you know, not to say much.
or they may feel like they can't say anything. So parents will hunker down and they'll get very private. And during that time they're planning funeral and whatnot, but the body hasn't been released yet. And, you know, they don't have a diagnosis of why the child died and they're waiting for all these results and they'll hunker down and be very quiet. And people have a hard time respecting those boundaries sometimes. And they'll say, hey, when we ask for privacy, we...
We mean it. We're terrified something is going to happen to our other children. This was an unexplained death. And until they come back and say what the diagnosis was, or it was SIDS or a sudden unexplained death in childhood, which does occur, they need that privacy until they get that final diagnosis. And it's a terrible time for parents because they're just in this moment where they need privacy. So.
They just wish people would understand that. So that was a very important nuance that I wanted to make sure that people understood that there will be a time when the family kind of comes out of that hunker down stage and they can talk more. But at that moment when they're asking for privacy, please give the privacy that's needed in that little bubble of time.
Laurie Baedke (09:36.714)
No, that man, that is heartbreaking. And I've got, you know, goose bumps right now listening. But also what I found so compelling about this book is that, you know, every single one of us will experience grief. It's really a guarantee we will experience as the individual who is grieving a loss, or we will know individuals close to us who are. And so it was just so
Joann Schaefer MD (09:40.295)
Yes.
Laurie Baedke (10:06.414)
practical and insightful to walk along your exploration of these different types of loss in a way that kind of better prepares and informs us. It did for me for when that happens, just kind of broadening the understanding or the perspective that I will bring to a future scenario, hopefully. And it was just, was so powerful in that way, but.
That is kind of a nice segue or bridge to the topic of the fact that grief is so misunderstood. It is universal and it is the fact that all of us will and probably have already numerous times likely experienced grief. But why is grief so misunderstood? Did this process give you a better understanding of that question?
Joann Schaefer MD (10:57.55)
absolutely. I mean, I learned a lot going through this. But I think it's universal. mean, at some point we lose our parents. We might lose a sibling. And at some point when you're standing at the altar marrying your spouse, you don't think that at one point one of you will say goodbye to the other, but it does happen. So it is a universal thing, but we don't talk about it enough. And so when we...
experience grief, there's a tendency to think that everybody experiences grief the same and that we all go through the same type of grief, the same stages, and that we all progress along the same linear fashion, but we don't. Grief is very, very personal. It is very unique to each individual. We all go through our ups and downs and we go our own path.
It is our own unique journey and it can't be rushed. And that's the most important thing for people to understand is that it's very unique and it's your own path and you can't really do it wrong. And so that's one of the things I really wanted people to understand. But there are a lot of things that you can do to help someone grieving. So that's why I wrote this unspoken side of grief because it's so often unspoken of.
but you can learn a lot and so hopefully people can get the book, keep it on the shelf. They might have a neighbor pass away or a coworker or somebody that's in their circle or someone close to them and they might find helpful tips in the book so that they can be better at it. I really wrote the book to spread empathy so that people can step into someone else's shoes and understand what it's like.
Laurie Baedke (12:41.902)
Ugh.
Laurie Baedke (12:46.21)
Yes, yes, I'm so glad that you use that word because that word was just percolating in my mind as you were describing, you know, this most recent response. I think it is, is empathy is a leadership competence. It's a life skill that I think is very easily misunderstood and undervalued, but it is that seeking to understand and putting someone else first, perhaps in front of our own
instinct or need or response in the moment. And so I'm curious also, Joann, what are some of the most common misconceptions about grief that you identified during your research?
Joann Schaefer MD (13:29.458)
Well, like I said, I think that I lovingly call these people the flower people. The people who send flowers, they're there right away after grief happens. And then they think, in a few weeks, everything's going to be OK. They're back to work. It's normal. It's over. But it's not. It is not for the grieving. I refer to grief as the quiet little house guest that never leaves. It's just there.
Laurie Baedke (13:35.693)
and
Joann Schaefer MD (13:58.211)
And it takes a while for people to adapt to this new life without that person. In fact, your body goes through a lot of changes. Neurochemically, your brain has to adjust to that person not being there. It has to refile that person in a new area of the brain because that person isn't tagging up and adding new memories as an active person would do in their brain each day. So now the brain has to figure out where do I put this and where do I store this person in my memories?
because there aren't active inputs for that person anymore. And so, you know, it just is different. So once the flower people go, people need those steadfast friends that are still gonna be there willing to listen, willing to help them sort through the grief that still is there.
Laurie Baedke (14:47.842)
Yeah, that is such sage advice. And I think it also helps us to maybe discuss what it is that you have identified that contributes to each of us feeling really uncomfortable around others that are grieving. Because, I mean, as I've experienced, I lost myself and watching other people.
you know, consider how to respond and how to talk about that loved one that's now gone around me or as I've watched friends and loved ones lose someone expectedly or very unexpectedly, there is this hyper sense of awkwardness and this trepidation that we don't want to do the wrong thing. What did your research in writing tell you, Joann, about?
why that is, why do we feel so uncomfortable around someone who's grieving?
Joann Schaefer MD (15:48.403)
Well, first and foremost, I think we don't like to think about our own mortality. So it's a little bit of that, right? So, so, you know, we have to get over that. However, I would tell you that when you are uncomfortable, remember the conversation isn't about you. So what I heard from the grieving is, and I would echo this from my own standpoint, it's not about you. So if you are talking to me and I get choked up, I get teary.
Laurie Baedke (15:52.302)
Hmm.
Sure.
Joann Schaefer MD (16:18.494)
Let me be whatever I need to be because your response isn't required. I just need to be whatever I can be. So if you come up and say, I'm so very sorry for the loss of your husband, your child, whatever it is, and I get choked up, just be there and be present with them. Listen to them. Talk about their loved ones. Say their name. You know, I said your child, loss of your child, but use their name.
loss of little James. You know, he was such a bubbly little child, I still hear his laugh. He was so sweet and kind. Whatever you can bring to the story. If they're in a place where they don't want to hear anything, they won't be there or they will say so. But at the point of saying that, you know, they recognize that these conversations are going to happen.
Laurie Baedke (16:48.472)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joann Schaefer MD (17:17.09)
And when they're ready for them, they are there in public and they're expecting people to come up and say something to them. It's most hurtful when they don't acknowledge the loss. When they don't say something, when they don't acknowledge their name, when they don't say, I'm really sorry for the passing of your husband, Bob. That is just painful to them.
Laurie Baedke (17:27.746)
Hmm.
Laurie Baedke (17:39.692)
Yeah. man. That one resonates really, really deeply because one of my dearest friends on the planet lost her husband unexpectedly almost two years ago. And I have had so much trepidation that I would at some point in time say the wrong thing. And I very early on just verbalized that and said, I'm very worried that I will say something wrong. And if I do,
please forgive me, but I want to stay in the conversation and be present for you. But I do that very humanly and I am, you know, worried and certainly don't want to, but I'm highly confident that I will at some point in time, you know, misstep from a timing perspective or from interpreting or reading and anticipating your needs and just that play. And I don't know if that was the right response. I think that was well received, but
That was my, yeah, that was my best intent to ask for grace in advance because no doubt, mean, there's, I'm sure, I mean, because grief just comes in waves and some days can be good, but then the next, it's so unanticipated and so unwieldy. And so that was my best endeavor to step into that and continue to step through it in a way that allowed me to be present.
Joann Schaefer MD (18:39.07)
That was beautiful.
Laurie Baedke (19:08.458)
absolutely flawed in the way that I am absolutely flawed.
Joann Schaefer MD (19:11.708)
That was beautiful though. That was beautiful. And most people, when they would tell me things that people said that hurt, they did step back and recognize that nobody was trying to be a jerk. They were trying. But they just, they gave me lots of comments that were like, you know, these weren't helpful. Like the most unhelpful thing that people, it resonated with everyone was, tell me what you need. Let me know what you need. Let me know how I can help.
Laurie Baedke (19:30.956)
Yeah.
Joann Schaefer MD (19:41.747)
because that puts the burden on the grieving, these wildly open-ended questions. And a more helpful thing is a closed-ended question. So, I'm going to the store, can I pick you up some bread, milk, eggs, beverages for your guest? May I bring you over a casserole? May I bring you, can I, may I mow your lawn? I see the grass is getting long. May I do that for you unless you have...
Laurie Baedke (19:44.003)
Yes.
Laurie Baedke (19:47.97)
Yes.
Laurie Baedke (20:03.405)
Yes.
Joann Schaefer MD (20:10.512)
something already set up. May I water your plants? May I walk your dog? Can I take the kids to school for you? All of these tasks that you can just list off or do you have a to-do list that I can take and start doing those things for you. There are just so many things that you can be very specific about the task. That's the most helpful thing to do for somebody. Don't say, let me know what you need because that's...
Laurie Baedke (20:14.958)
Yeah.
Laurie Baedke (20:25.26)
Yep. Yep.
Laurie Baedke (20:37.528)
Yes.
Joann Schaefer MD (20:39.154)
That is not helpful and it just quite frankly irritates them because they have a to-do list a mile long and they need help.
Laurie Baedke (20:47.436)
Yes, yes, I love that so much. And I think that is kind of what separates the wheat from the chaff in terms of an individual who's deeply committed and there and in that inner circle where you can say.
Hey, Joann, I know your laundry is still gonna need to get done, but that's probably the last thing that you want to do. So if it works out for you, why don't I just come and pick up your laundry every Tuesday morning and then I'll bring it back in the afternoon? Or if Tuesday's not good, maybe suggest another day, but I'd really love to make sure that that's just not even something you need to think about. Same thing with a meal or the mowing the lawn, just, you know, and allowing that to be...
contribution without the necessity of one more decision to make because how many decisions are being made as a loved one has just departed and planning services, taking care of everything else. Let's stay with that, really inappropriate or unfortunate cliches that are just constant and chronic. One that comes to mind is, everything happens for a reason or they're in a better place now. What are those?
Joann Schaefer MD (21:48.574)
Alright.
Laurie Baedke (21:53.048)
things that people consistently do wrong in interacting with grieving individuals that we can say, put that on the do not do list.
Joann Schaefer MD (22:02.768)
Yeah, so this came up when I interviewed people that were deeply faithful, heavily involved in their churches. But one thing they told me is they didn't want to hear those cliches or, you know, they're in a better place or it's in God's plan or, you know, that was really disturbing to them. Despite the fact that they leaned heavily on their faith, they didn't want people to indiscriminately use their faith.
One mom said to me, I am involved in my church in every way possible. But when someone came up and said, your son is in a better place now, he's with God. That mom said to me, my son's best place is in my arms. Don't say that to me. She said it just angered her and it made her feel so hurt. Despite the fact that she's very faithful and
She just said, I wasn't ready to hear that yet and certainly not at the funeral or for many weeks. She said, I needed to come to that myself and it's just jarring at the time. And so I just tell people, know, turn up your EQ a little bit and get better at what you can say to people in that time. If they say that, then you can support it, but wait for them to say it first and maybe not say those things right out of the gate.
There are hundreds of other things that you can say.
Laurie Baedke (23:33.858)
Yeah, excellent advice. Let's talk about one more core concept from the book that I want to make sure that we highlight before our time is up. And that's your section that talks about growth and meaning after loss. The book touches on this really, really beautifully. And what did you learn about how people find meaning again, because of the experience of traversing loss and grief?
Joann Schaefer MD (23:59.805)
Yeah, it spanned a whole range of things. People decided to live their lives differently. They learned how to care deeply about the work that they were doing and walk away from some of the work they were doing. Living their own lives, like starting to value their life and the time they had on this planet just differently because of the loss that they had experienced. It also led to the development of many foundations. So I would challenge people to look at the root.
starting of foundations and not find that it was started because of someone's tragic loss. Many, many foundations are started that way. So they turn something horribly tragic into something beautifully good for the communities, for the state, for the nation, even globally. So people have this remarkable power to turn their tragedy into inspiration.
And so I noted several examples of that in the book. Again, it just was beautiful how some people took their grief and turned it into something of growth, both individually and community and nationally.
Laurie Baedke (25:13.804)
Yeah. I love that so much. And I think that those are usually the things that don't come until, you know, quite a bit farther down the road. Sometimes they're more immediate, but I think you are so spot on there. And, you know, there was an example later on in the book, toward the end, where there was an example that you wrote about that resonated deeply with me because it mirrored.
something that a dear friend and colleague of mine, a former guest on the show, Don Avery, had shared. Don was a longtime mentor of mine. He was a longtime hospital CEO in Georgia. And he and his wife, Fara tragically lost their younger daughter in a car accident in December of 2011 when she was in undergrad. And it was so...
heartbreaking to watch them walk that journey. one thing that Don taught me so much about grief through being, you know, his friend and colleague during that journey. But one of the things that he really taught me was just an and I saw it mentioned in your book as well, just the startling statistics of divorce for marriages of a husband and a wife or two spouses who lose a child. It is
It's between 80 and 90%. It's almost a death knell for a marriage to lose a child. But I digress. What was written about in this later stage of the book is just a leader sharing the story of how he never really realized the compassion that he had for his team during their episode. He never realized the lack of compassion that he had for his team until he lost his son. And it taught him so much more about compassion. And he also saw evidence in how much
his team supported him through that loss. And while I would never categorize or characterize Don as someone who didn't have compassion, he was the epitome of compassion and people centricity. But on the other hand, Don said to me very specifically, said, I know in hindsight, one of the reasons why he was chosen to lose his daughter, Meredith was because then in the coming years, he had three...
Joann Schaefer MD (27:10.184)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Baedke (27:28.896)
employees that worked at his organization who also lost children and he was able to be so much more a resource and and a help to them as they walked that journey because his lived earned experience in that journey was you know he was able to have additional compassion and empathy and understanding and to be of support to them so I just think there are so many
good things that can come from better understanding grief, better understanding how to navigate it when we will experience it, but then also how to better be with individuals that we love or care about as they navigate grief as well. Your book is just such a phenomenal resource, Joann.
Joann Schaefer MD (28:15.64)
thank you so much.
Laurie Baedke (28:17.824)
I have one final question. I would love to maybe just tee you up to speak directly to a listener who might be walking through grief right now. What do you want them to hear and know?
Joann Schaefer MD (28:31.838)
I just want them to know that they are not alone and that walk your own path, give yourself more grace and more patience to get through this time and lean on your family and friends, lean on the people that are good listeners.
Laurie Baedke (28:53.944)
Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm going to include a link in the show notes to this book. It's available on Amazon. Again, fantastic resource. also, Joann told me right before we started recording that the audio book is forthcoming probably within the next week. Yes? Okay. Fingers crossed. So such a fantastic resource. Joann, thank you for your hard work to put this important book into the world and just for your willingness to come and share about it with us today.
Joann Schaefer MD (29:10.28)
Yes, it'll be on auto. Yes.
Joann Schaefer MD (29:22.728)
Thank you so much for having me.
