Laurie Baedke (00:02.242)
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Growth Edge Leadership Podcast. I am your host, Laurie Baedke and today I'm joined by Dr. Amery Treble-Barna. Dr. Barna is an NIH-funded associate professor at the University of Pittsburgh and serves as the director of faculty wellbeing and vitality for the health sciences. She is also a certified executive coach and the founder of Mastermind Executive Leadership. Amery, I'm so glad that you're here. Welcome to the show.
Amery Treble-Barna (00:32.281)
Thank you so much for having me. .
Laurie Baedke (00:34.562)
Well, fill in the blanks a little bit. Tell the listener just a little bit of color commentary in addition to your impressive professional credentials about your work and anything else that you'd love to share as context.
Amery Treble-Barna (00:46.821)
Sure. Let's see. I'm actually a pediatric neuropsychologist by training. So in my day job, I'm spending the majority of my professional effort on NIH-funded studies of pediatric traumatic brain injury. I think it's also important to mention that I am a mom. So I'm a mom of five-year-old and two-year-old girls.
And yeah, just really happy to be here. Thank you so much.
Laurie Baedke (01:19.15)
Well, in addition to your work in an academic setting as a research scientist, you have also started to develop leadership development programming within your own institution. And then also secondarily, tell us a little bit about that. Take us back and describe what you saw happening amongst scientists, mothers, or experienced yourself that others weren't fully naming or addressing.
Amery Treble-Barna (01:45.995)
Yeah, thank you. I really love this question, Laurie, because I feel like we're jumping right into the heart of the issue. So what I saw and what I didn't hear anyone naming clearly was this collision between two extremely highly demanding systems that are built on what I would call impossible standards. So
One being the structures of science and academic medicine, and the other being the expectations of modern motherhood. So as you know, academia is built on this ideal worker norm as well as structural scarcity. So this ideal worker norm, right, assumes that the most committed scientist is constantly always available, endlessly productive, and singularly focused on work.
The work itself never ends. You could work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and there would be more papers to write and data to analyze. At the same time, our funding and promotion systems are intensely competitive, now more than ever. The tenure system is literally designed to be up or out, right? Not everyone makes it. So then we pair that with
modern motherhood, which is also shaped by these intensive expectations. The data actually show that mothers today are spending more time directly caring for their children than mothers did in the 60s, even though many mothers in that era were stay at home moms. So the majority of female faculty are mothers. And so that means that we're navigating these directly competing
demands every day. And where these systems collide, we actually can see the motherhood penalty. So mothers are perceived as being less committed and less competent. They experience slower promotion and wage penalties while fathers actually there's evidence that they have a fatherhood premium that they experience.
Amery Treble-Barna (04:10.221)
You know, what I really like about your question is what wasn't being named. So because these dynamics are operating and it can actually feel risky and there can be real consequences for mentioning that you're a mom. And so we feel like we have to hide this joyful and deeply meaningful part of our lives or identities at work. So ultimately, yeah, we're seeing this intersection of these two really relentless systems.
built on directly competing and often impossible standards.
Laurie Baedke (04:45.551)
Yeah, so that is extraordinary to understand what then was that resulting in? What were some of the things that either you experienced or you were observing and hearing that were experienced by your, you know, faculty colleagues who are high performing, high functioning, very, very productive and successful, successful in air quotes, physician, research scientists, but
What was their lived experience?
Amery Treble-Barna (05:15.887)
Right, so I think it's important to talk about both, right? So from like a systems and career development perspective, we know that women are entering scientific and biomedical fields at equal or higher rates than men, yet they are underrepresented in more senior, so associate and full professor ranks as well as in executive leadership positions.
So that alone suggests that something structural is happening. On the lived experience side of things, I have spoken with so many scientist mothers about this and each person's experience obviously has different aspects and contexts. I think an overarching theme that I hear constantly is feeling like we're failing in all of our roles.
feeling like we're not doing enough at work and feeling like we're not doing enough at home, as well as this feeling of never really being present where you are. So when you're at work, you're thinking about or worrying about your kids or you're thinking about all the mental load and all of the tasks that need to get done that women are bearing the brunt of. And then when you're with your kids, you're thinking about your inbox piling up.
and all the things that you, you know, meant to finish but didn't get through in that day. So that in itself is, as we know, terrible for well-being, not ever feeling present where you are.
Laurie Baedke (06:55.502)
yeah, absolutely. So burnout, isolation, that type of identity fragmentation or dysmorphia, parental guilt compounds, and then does in fact start to negatively impact the way that you show up and do the work that you do. So, Amery, what does the data tell us about what's at stake for institutions if we don't necessarily address this? You've shared that numbers show
Amery Treble-Barna (07:00.857)
Thank
Amery Treble-Barna (07:22.319)
Yeah.
Laurie Baedke (07:23.754)
increasing women being educated to and then contributing and entering the system, but they're not advancing at the same rates. And so are they departing? Are they quietly quitting? Are they becoming less productive? Or are they equally productive and just less recognized? What's the institutional view here?
Amery Treble-Barna (07:47.865)
So I think a big challenge from the institutional perspective is faculty retention, right? So if faculty are not able to make it work at their current institution, they are often looking for a better situation somewhere else. Or there is this leaky pipeline where, and there's all this news about this recently where women are perhaps choosing different
career trajectories because the systems that are currently in place are not serving them. So, you know, we're losing diversity in terms of gender in our institutions and we know that greater diversity creates better teams and better thinking and better innovation. And then it's very expensive to recruit faculty members. And so, you know,
institutions are investing all this money in recruiting faculty members and then they're not able to retain them, that's a major cost to the institutions as well.
Laurie Baedke (08:53.358)
Indeed. Yeah. So you saw this problem, you experienced it, and then you built something in response to it. Tell us a little bit about that journey and the steps that you've undertaken over the recent years to stand up to this issue.
Amery Treble-Barna (09:12.837)
Sure. So, yeah, so about five years ago, I knew I wanted to do something. I think my original vision for what I wanted to do was not well-formed and was so much smaller than what it's become, which I'm really proud of. But I ended up reaching out to
someone who is a sponsor of me at my institution and said, you know, it was the height of COVID. And I said, you know, scientists mothers are struggling and I want to do something to help. And so being the amazing sponsor that she is, she invested the time and resources and the freedom. She gave me the freedom to develop the program in the way that I saw best. And so
We created our first cohort of research intensive faculty who identify as being mothers of school-aged or younger children across our schools of the health sciences. And I think what really changed the game was that we ended up hiring an executive coach named Christy Uffelman in our first year of the program to essentially co-direct the program with me.
And Christy introduced me to the power of coaching and not only the power of coaching, but peer coaching. And so, you know, when you get a group of often over committed, burned out, scientists, moms together, it can very quickly descend into doom and gloom, understandably so. So I was very intentional about designing
a space that would help us move beyond that and start asking different questions like what is actually possible here. And as you know, coaching is an amazing mechanism or approach for doing that. So the scientist mothers are really able to step off the hamster wheel and sometimes for the first time in years reflect on what they truly want.
Amery Treble-Barna (11:34.913)
and how they want to design their lives and their careers. And then from there, it becomes about experimentation. So there's not just one size fits all solutions here. Scientists moms are extremely smart and resourceful and creative. And so when they take the time and give themselves permission to reflect and trust themselves and test new approaches, they really begin to design lives where they are thriving.
rather than just surviving, even within these systems that weren't originally built with our thriving in mind.
Laurie Baedke (12:11.67)
That is fantastic. I love that you really identified a problem, were resourced and supported to run after it and chase it, even if it was only a small amount of resourcing or protected time or just the encouragement of someone saying, yeah, go for it. I believe in what you're saying. And then you designed differently, intentionally to make sure that you avoided some of the things that could have been a natural
Amery Treble-Barna (12:27.397)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Baedke (12:41.366)
evolve evolution or devolving of the way that the program could have been experienced. And I want to dig into something intentionally because of course I'm a passionate fan of coaching, but you really mentioned and talked about peer coaching. And that was another intentional choice. Why community-based leadership or why peer coaching instead of individual only, which is perhaps more common. And what has that
produced or delivered in experience over the course of the cohorts that you've led so far.
Amery Treble-Barna (13:17.381)
So I think one of the most powerful moments for many of these scientists moms is realizing that the challenges they're experiencing are not personal failures, that they're instead shared structural challenges. So when you bring these brilliant women together in a room and they start to recognize those patterns, that's incredibly validating and freeing.
And then peer coaching is a really powerful way to facilitate that shift. Scientists moms are extraordinary peer coaches because they bring this, you know, deep intellectual rigor as well as this lived understanding of the very specific pressures of academic science and motherhood. So over the course of the program, participants are not only building coaching skills themselves,
They're also benefiting from being coached by peers who have a really deep understanding of the context that they're navigating. So through those conversations, they start to see new possibilities, strategies that have worked well for others, different ways of approaching leadership, time, boundaries, and designing their careers to fit them.
They're also forming friendships and we've had scientist moms begin to collaborate and write grants together. And so they're getting to do team science with colleagues who share their values, which is incredible. And then I think what's been especially exciting for me is to see that the impact of the program isn't stopping when they graduate from the program. The scholars are going back to their labs and their institutions.
and they're applying their coaching skills with their teams and with their trainees. And so there's this ripple effect in that we're not just supporting the individual scientist moms, we're actually helping to cultivate a broader culture of coaching within labs and across institutions.
Laurie Baedke (15:31.128)
That's fantastic. And I know that, again, you started this in your own institution and it has run through several cohorts, correct? And then you've also replicated it externally so that outside of your own institution, you can broaden that impact. So tell us a little bit about that evolution. And if you're able, lace in some of the outcomes that you've been capturing and documenting and analyzing.
Amery Treble-Barna (15:40.825)
with
Laurie Baedke (16:00.33)
so that the learner can understand just a little bit more about this great positive outcome or experience that you've been leading and delivering.
Amery Treble-Barna (16:10.713)
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity to talk about it. So at Pitt, I began this program about five years ago, and it's a 12 month program where all of the scholars are at the same institution. And then about two years ago, I really wanted to have a broader impact. And so I...
established an LLC and began to offer a six month version of the program that's all virtual and it's comprised of scientist moms from any institution. And we have cohorts that begin in January and June of each year. In terms of the data, I intentionally, that's another thing I designed intentionally was the scientists and me was like, we have to study this, right?
So we're collecting data before and after the program from the scientist mothers on all sorts of different metrics. And so some of the most significant or largest effects that we're seeing are reduced burnout, both personal and professional burnout, reduced family work and work family.
Conflict so this is the extent to which work responsibilities interfere with fulfilling family obligations and vice versa and Reduced parental guilt and then improved self-compassion. So those are the largest effects so far we also have statistically significant gains in psychological empowerment self-efficacy Resilient coping and this sense of belonging so these are all evidence of
know, transformation and improved well-being for scientists, mothers, which is why I'm doing this work. I think it's also exciting to consider these metrics from the institutional perspective. So many of these areas feed into this larger construct of psychological capital, which we know from the broader organizational psychology literature are associated with greater job performance, engagement.
Amery Treble-Barna (18:27.737)
well-being and then leadership effectiveness as well. So we're also collecting some data on intention to seek promotion and leadership roles, as well as intention to leave their current institution or intention to leave academia altogether. We need more data points there, but we are seeing some trends in those areas as well. So together, the data is showing this real transformation for scientist moms.
But then also clear benefits for the institutions pointing to a strong return on investment for institutions that might be willing to invest in this type of support for faculty.
Laurie Baedke (19:09.386)
I love that so much. I think this is just, will mention how people can contact you at the end of the episode, but I want to be really sure to say it right now as well for anyone who's listening who might work around. I'm guessing not the broad majority of my audience is women scientists, research scientists, because again, there are so many different niches throughout healthcare and academia at large. But if anyone listening knows someone who is
a woman research scientist or leads that area of their institution, I would love to encourage them to be thinking about how they can introduce your work or share news of your work with their institutions because of that individual and institutional impact. But let's stay here for a moment because I would love to ask you about
why community and why this type of program is so important for women in STEM, women in science. And I'm going to lead with an assumption or a stereotype, is women in science and individuals in science, research scientists or STEM professionals in my research have been shown to be more likely to be introverted leaning and less inclined to network. Some of the studies that I've read when I teach about professional networking,
for healthcare professionals and its importance in our journeys tell me that about 65 or more percent of STEM professionals identify as introverted leaning, which is a little bit of a barrier or a headwind to our natural inclination to connect in community and want to be seeking out these opportunities. So talk a little bit about that. Why is community not optional for...
Amery Treble-Barna (20:50.597)
Thanks.
Laurie Baedke (20:58.326)
research scientists and specifically women in science or STEM.
Amery Treble-Barna (21:03.269)
Yeah, so this is actually one of my favorite soap boxes because I am a staunch introvert myself and I've worked really hard to make changes in this area of networking and seeking out sponsors and not doing everything by myself and creating communities and it has truly been, I mean, life changing on a personal and professional level. I think
some of the major benefits I've already mentioned of community, Like realizing you're not alone is very freeing and validating. Being in community is also a catalyst for growth. So, you know, hearing what works for others, having others help hold you accountable to what it is that you want for yourself. Being a scientist can be very isolating. And so being in community with others
Like you said, it's not just nice to have, really is critical. And then so many scientist moms, like I mentioned, feel really overwhelmed and really, really stretched thin. And because of that, thinking strategically about their career or investing the time to identify and cultivate relationships with sponsors specifically sort of gets pushed to the side.
But I would argue that it is so critical. You know, most scientists have mentors because mentorship is sort of built into the fabric of scientific training. But sponsors can truly be game changing. So people who are opening doors for you, putting you up for awards, suggesting you to be a part of a project in your area. I think...
you know, there's actually research showing that women are at a disadvantage in this area. there's research showing that women are not only less likely to seek out sponsorship, but are also less likely to be identified as the beneficiaries of sponsorship. And so, you know, we're at this disadvantage, but there's things we can do and concrete actions we can take to change that.
Laurie Baedke (23:28.216)
So staying there, what are the roles that mentors or sponsors have played in your journey specifically in these last five years as you've been building these programs? And what specifically have you learned about the power of activating sponsors and engaging or seeking out sponsors more intentionally so that they can throw their shoulders into the rock of your work as well?
Amery Treble-Barna (23:30.287)
to do.
Amery Treble-Barna (23:57.379)
Yeah, so mentors and sponsors have been absolutely essential to this journey. I truly could not be doing this work without them. So I've been incredibly fortunate to have mentors who've generously shared their expertise in the gender equity space, challenged my thinking, helped me develop the skills needed in best service of this work. And then I've had sponsors who
like we've talked about, really trusted me with time and resources and opportunities to grow this work in ways that would have been very difficult to do on my own. You yourself have been a great example of a sponsor for me. I asked to buy you a drink at a leadership conference and in 45 minutes you learned my story.
and what was most important to me and made warm introductions to several giants in the area of gender equity and academic medicine. So those introductions have really opened doors and helped me cultivate relationships that have been incredibly meaningful for furthering this work.
Laurie Baedke (25:09.976)
Well, yes, I was just thinking back to that time when we met and I loved that initiative. And I'm so grateful to have met you and to be able to watch your journey and watch your positive impact. But I'm guessing as well that you have incorporated some of those teachings into how you equip the students, the learners, the participants in your programs, in your home institution and in your mothermind course as well.
to help them to know how is it that you do it and you tell the story. This is what I do and this is how I go ask. And it takes initiative and sometimes it takes a little bit of courage, but I'm guessing that you have seen it's certainly been my experience as well that so often we tell ourselves a story. have a narrative in our mind that is completely opposite of what the lived experience is when you go ahead and put yourself out there. People are in large part,
very willing to be generous and helpful if you just initiate. Yes, talk a little bit about how you teach that or share your lived experience so that other colleagues can unlock that secret sauce, if you will, so that it starts to benefit their journeys.
Amery Treble-Barna (26:26.711)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so, you know, it's really important to keep people who believe in your work updated on what you're accomplishing, what you're hoping to build in your career, and even what you're asking for. Many of us hesitate to do that, but those conversations are actually how sponsors know how to advocate for you and what to advocate for. So in Mothermind Transform,
Laurie Baedke (26:36.375)
Yes.
Amery Treble-Barna (26:55.973)
We also talk about how these relationships are bi-directional. So it's not just that you're taking, taking, from your mentors and sponsors. There are so many ways that you can also make meaningful deposits into those relationships. And I give scholars practical tools for thinking about that. We also talk about kind of broadening the definition of networking, right? So my greatest fear
is like having to walk into a happy hour networking event at a conference, right? Like I would rather do anything else but that. But that's what we think of when we think of networking. But there's so many ways, other ways to do it that are one, probably more effective and strategic, like a one-on-one meeting. Hey, can I buy you a coffee?
and hear about your journey to leadership. So I offer tools for thinking about that and even email templates for conducting executive, reaching out to conduct an executive interview with someone who you're hoping will turn into a sponsor for you and thinking about how to cultivate that relationship and how to let them know when you have a sponsorship ask that they might be able to help you with. So I guess my
Laurie Baedke (27:53.219)
Yep.
Amery Treble-Barna (28:21.273)
My first piece of advice is just like, make the time for this work because it is so critical and really amps up the impact that all of us scientist moms want to be having with our work. And then, you know, when you approach it intentionally and authentically, it can really become some of the most meaningful and energizing parts of your professional life is maintaining.
this network of mentors and sponsors who are in your corner.
Laurie Baedke (28:53.838)
100%. I couldn't agree more. And I just, I love how practical that is. And I applaud your teaching it because it is mentorship and sponsorship are so profoundly impactful in our journeys and in every domain, but perhaps specifically more so in academia or in research. And when we think about the most efficient and effective ways to go about that,
I think your teachings are spot on, but our time is wearing thin and I want to make sure that I still point you to a couple of important topics. One of them really, Amery, is about your own personal leadership growth. I think it's so interesting to identify that in the years that you've described that you've been building these programs, in addition to your active production as a scholar, as a research scientist, and throughout the COVID and post-COVID journey.
And you mentioned that this was five years ago, but you also mentioned that you have a five and a two year old. So clearly personal and professional lives are so, so busy, but you have built amazing programs that are proving and delivering great impact. What didn't you know about your own leadership capacity when you started this work that you now know? And, and think about in the rear view mirror.
Amery Treble-Barna (30:14.885)
I think a lot of us women especially struggle with imposter syndrome and you know as an introvert I didn't know the extent of my capabilities when it came to leading. I think introverts actually can make very incredible leaders.
you know, thinking back to the in-person full day kickoff of our second cohort of the program when I was leading it for the first time by myself, I was absolutely terrified. I have so much respect for all of these brilliant investigators in these rooms and my worst nightmare would be wasting their time. But I just remember having a moment thinking, you know,
I can do this. I'm not even sweating. I can speak more articulately than I thought. can deliver a keynote and even maybe make people laugh in the audience. And that is shocking and thrilling for me every time. So yeah, mean, when you're so driven by a mission, it's amazing what you can.
Accomplish in the skills you can develop in service of that mission. It makes me think of the phrase like doing it scared, right? Like you do it anyway, even though you're scared and then you get better at it over time.
Laurie Baedke (31:48.556)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Baedke (31:53.9)
Yeah, I love that so much because we are never equipped to do the things that we should be doing, growing and ascending and evolving in our professional journeys if we don't in fact do it scared, right? Professionally in our jobs and in those additional leadership pursuits, individually for any of us who are parents, we know what it feels like to be discharged from the hospital or in whatever way that you become a parent.
Amery Treble-Barna (32:08.837)
Yeah.
Laurie Baedke (32:24.014)
Maybe you're flying somewhere to meet a child that you're adopting. When we become parents, in whatever way we become parents, we weren't equipped. Last Thursday, we weren't a parent, and now all of a sudden we are. And so, so many things about life require us to really stand up to that challenge of doing it scared. And then the best way to think about it is, okay, what can I learn? How can I reflect on that? How can I look at that?
and practice self-compassion. You mentioned that earlier in our conversation and we haven't even picked that term up and explored it, but high achieving professionals are often so, so cruel to themselves in not giving themselves credit for what went well and where they can grow. just, think that this is so amazing, but where have you had Amery to grow the most as a founder?
in terms of your capacity and maybe you've already mentioned it, but where have you had to really dig deep all the way down to your toenails to grow the most in this journey?
Amery Treble-Barna (33:27.685)
I think so many areas. When it comes to like being a founder entrepreneur specifically, which is what you're asking about, being a principal investigator actually surprise it or prepares you surprisingly well for being a founder and entrepreneur because you're essentially functioning as an entrepreneur within your institution in terms of having to fund your own salary and fund the salary of
all the folks that you support. But I think where I've had to grow the most is patience and some self-compassion tied in there. So I was so excited about taking this beyond my institution that I thought I would just put up one Facebook post about the program and I would have scientist moms knocking down my door to enroll. And that was not the case.
Laurie Baedke (34:04.578)
Mmm.
Laurie Baedke (34:24.568)
Mm-hmm.
Amery Treble-Barna (34:26.501)
It's been very challenging to get the word out and to, you know, support scientist moms in making the decision of actually investing time and resources in themselves when they're already feeling stretched. So thin is also a big challenge. So I think patience, yeah, understanding that as a founder, you know, there are...
There are winds and then there are valleys and then there are more valleys. And yeah, it's all just part of the journey.
Laurie Baedke (35:04.231)
Yeah, man, I love that. So two quick questions for you as we draw to a close. First, if we fast forward 10 years, 20 years, and Mothermind has achieved its fullest potential, what is different about leadership in STEM or research science for women or moms compared to what it looks like today?
Amery Treble-Barna (35:28.709)
So I think, you know, my vision for the future of leadership in STEM and academic medicine and science would be that it becomes more human and more relational and more sustainable.
So I hope that we see more leaders who understand that excellence and wellbeing are not competing priorities, but they're actually deeply connected. It's investigators and faculty who are well and who are professionally fulfilled, who are best equipped to have the most innovative ideas and the greatest engagement and productivity.
I also hope that we see more women and more mothers in positions of influence and shaping how science is done and how scientists are supported. What gives me lot of optimism is that I'm already seeing this happening. So the scientist moms who are coming through these programs are stepping into these leadership roles and they're bringing these coaching skills that they've learned along the way.
a different approach to leadership, a more relational approach to leadership and a deep commitment to cultivating these healthy cultures in their labs and in their institutions. So if that continues, then there will be this ripple effect or the snowball effect where I think leadership could really look different and be much stronger because of that.
Laurie Baedke (37:14.112)
Indeed, indeed. Okay, last question. Speak directly to the scientist mother who might be listening, who feels stretched thin and deeply overwhelmed. What do you want her to know today?
Amery Treble-Barna (37:28.133)
So first I want her to know that she's not alone. So many brilliant, dedicated, scientists, mothers are carrying an enormous amount right now, especially right now, and feeling really stretched thin in these systems that were not designed for us. Second, there's nothing about that experience that is saying that she's not capable, committed, or meant to lead.
Often it simply means that she's navigating these systems, right? And then most importantly, I want scientist moms to know that it is possible to thrive instead of just survive within these systems. She does not have to choose between building an impactful scientific career and having a rich, meaningful family life. But thriving rarely happens in isolation. So.
You know, it happens with the right support through community and mentorship and sponsorship in spaces where scientists mothers can feel fully seen and supported and empowered to lead. And when that support is in place, then incredible things become possible, not only for the scientist mother herself and her family, but also for the impact of her science, which is, you know, what we're all here to do.
Laurie Baedke (38:52.128)
Indeed. Amery, I'm so grateful for this conversation. I wish that we could talk twice as long because there's so much more goodness to dig into. But I am going to put your contact information in the show notes. And I just cannot strongly encourage enough any listener who has been impressed by your work or who knows someone who could benefit from your work to please reach out and be in touch. Follow you.
and share the news of your work broadly because it is just, it is so laudable and I'm so grateful for you. I'm so grateful to know you and I'm really grateful for our conversation today. Thank you for joining me.
Amery Treble-Barna (39:34.275)
Thank you so much, Laurie.
