Laurie Baedke (00:00)
Well, welcome to another episode of the Growth Edge Leadership Podcast. I am your host, Laurie Baedke and today I'm honored to welcome Dr. Suzanne de Janasz a globally recognized leadership scholar and negotiation expert to the show. Dr. de Janasz has served at top institutions, including a current appointment at London Business School. She's authored influential textbooks published in Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and many other fantastic outlets.
and has consulted with organizations worldwide on leadership, change management, negotiation, and mentoring. Welcome Dr. de Janasz. Will you please fill in the blanks? In addition to your impressive professional accomplishments, what's a personal fun fact that you'd share with the audience to offer a little color commentary on you as a person?
Suzanne de Janasz (00:41)
you
Sure, well, this last year was a very travel-filled year. And I traveled both for pleasure as well as business and client work. I just hit number 95, the 95th country that I have spent time in. And that 95th country was Brunei. So there you have it.
Laurie Baedke (01:08)
⁓
fantastic. that's so fun. I love that you have been traveling and isn't our world a beautiful place?
Suzanne de Janasz (01:17)
It is. It certainly is.
Laurie Baedke (01:19)
Yeah.
Well, I have been, I became acquainted with your work because I found an article that you wrote a few years ago on why CEOs need mentors. And everyone who knows me knows that I'm deeply passionate about mentorship and sponsorship and coaching. And I thought that you just so superbly ⁓ articulated the importance of how senior executives still continue to need mentoring.
and why access to great mentors at that level can be challenging, but you've researched mentorship extensively and your findings highlight that lonely learning at the top phenomenon. So what fundamentally changes about learning and developing when someone becomes the CEO?
Suzanne de Janasz (02:07)
That's great question, Laurie. Well, first of all,
And one of the reasons why that piece was, you know, I don't mean to toot my own horn, but groundbreaking, is because for all the many decades of research about mentoring, the focus has been on students, you know, in high school and college, members of underrepresented groups, women, people of color, et cetera. But up till that point, there hadn't been a single study that I was aware of that was published on the mentoring of CEOs.
maybe who the CEOs were mentoring, but not the mentoring of CEOs. And the reason, I believe, was because, well, you're at the apex of your career. What could you possibly need mentoring for? And so it wasn't something that was discussed, but yet when I talked with CEOs and near CEOs, this was a real challenge because, you know, for example, some CEOs are taking that role from the CFO position.
a more functionally ⁓ narrow position, or they're taking that position from having run the business within Malaysia or some other country, not maybe the entire firm. And so their experience is a little bit more stove piped, if you will. And so they get into this position, the CEO position, and not only are there super high expectations, in fact, the average tenure of a brand
new CEO, depending on if you're internally appointed or externally appointed, has been dropping steadily. And so you have no time, essentially, to turn around the company, to bring it back to profitability, and all eyes are on you, all the expectations are on you, and yet there's really no onboarding. And on top of all the...
expertise and experience you've had coming into this role, one of the things you haven't done is you haven't managed a diverse board. And so you have members of your board who especially ⁓ outside the US come from all other companies, these non-executive directors whose backgrounds are different, whose expectations are different. And so you're in the middle of this potentially perfect storm of people having these expectations of you. And how do you know?
how to open up a new market, how do you know how to deal with an ethical violation or at least person who has accused you of an ethical violation and everything else and you know the the way with which or the speed with which technology is changing and so anyway what we have found is that not only had there been really little attention to that
In a research perspective, there's also been very little attention from organizations. And so they're making this huge investment in this new CEO, but not necessarily in their learning and growth to be able to take on this position and perform well.
Laurie Baedke (05:20)
Yeah, man, you are so spot on. And it also then kind of highlights that importance or practical reality that while many individuals that are coaches haven't necessarily held the role ⁓ of the individual that they're coaching, almost exclusively with mentors, the importance of being able to seek out someone who has.
Suzanne de Janasz (05:22)
you
Laurie Baedke (05:46)
been there, done that is a part of that equation. And in your research, you make a clear distinction between coaching and mentoring. Why is that having been there factor so critical for CEOs?
Suzanne de Janasz (05:59)
Again, another great question. know, back to all the pressure to perform, their time is limited, right? How much time do I have in a day and how much time do I have to prove myself? And so am I gonna listen to some 45 year old ⁓ motivational coach?
Or am I going to listen to someone who has faced the same kinds of challenges that I'm currently facing? So how am going to spend my time? And this was something that we found was absolutely essential. And in some of the work that we did, it was not one mentor, but two. And they were chosen because they had maybe complementary experiences or expertise. And so ⁓ they really value.
sitting across the table from somebody who, you know, was the chairman and CEO of some Fortune 50 company, and this was an experience that they hadn't had in the past. So to hear it from someone who'd been there and done that, let me also say, Laurie, that it's not either or. It's both and. So whereas a mentor may be coaching you across the career or at least...
With the context of the career in mind, a coach could be really helpful in, you know, presenting to ⁓ the PR of, ⁓ you know, an organization or really important when ⁓ you need to speak with more gravitas. So when you can isolate a specific skill set, you might find some excellent resources in an executive coach. But as far as running a business as a CEO, they needed the folks that I spoke with.
they needed to have someone that respect and the credibility and the trust, someone who'd been there and done that.
Laurie Baedke (07:54)
Yeah, excellent points. And I'm curious if you feel like you've observed or has your research borne out that peer mentors for CEOs, where CEOs have the ability to, maybe they're not speaking to someone who is a former CEO, but maybe they curate a collection of peer CEOs where there's a confidential environment and that ability to share that experience, that lived experience with other individuals who are in the crucible as well.
Suzanne de Janasz (08:24)
So again, I want to answer this with not either or, but both and, right? So learning from someone who is, you know, 10, 20, 30 years older, been there, done that, led organizations similar to the ones that you had is a special kind of support that you might get, including, by the way, the conduit to introductions to other CEOs and other people in their network.
Right? So as soon as I get to learn more about you, trust you, see you as somebody who is not only capable, but someone whose trust is there. Right? So I'm not going to have you talk to one of my colleagues if I don't think you're going to comport yourself appropriately. Right? So what I would say is the mentors who are a level or two above in their careers is one kind of resource. And the peer to peer mentor.
is a little bit different and equally important, right? Because they're facing the same kinds of issues that you are contemporaneously. Whereas it may be, 20 years ago when I led this company to go public, here's what I found. ⁓ The other thing that's really nice that I saw with this one organization that I worked with is in addition to setting up these mentoring relationships one-on-one with these senior folks in industry,
also offered, to use your word, a curated monthly gathering around either an industry or a particular topic. And there would be a limit of, let's say, five or six of these mentees in this system. So CEOs or near CEOs or brand new CEOs where they can have this conversation moderated by a very senior person, a chairman, but also be able to talk with one another to kind of like, yeah, it is lonely
but now I can feel like these are other people who are experiencing challenges like I am.
Laurie Baedke (10:31)
Yeah, I wholly agree. And I often share an article that was published, I believe it's an HBR article as well, that was written by Dr. Herminia Ibarra. And she talks about ⁓ the continuum of mentors that we need. And I think the reliance upon a singular mentor is insufficient and frankly selfish. ⁓ It's malpractice for any of us. We need to have diverse groups of individuals
that serve the various needs that we might have, all the way from mentorship to sponsorship, but then, you know, people that are very well connected and can open their network or strategize or maybe have a niche expertise in a space that's industry specific or for some other reason. So I'm curious if you could speak to that or perhaps underscore why it's important that we have a diverse cabinet, kitchen cabinet, as it were.
Suzanne de Janasz (11:17)
you
or board of advisors. I've heard it referred to as a personal board of advisors. I want to step back to something you said and also share with you this was a very recurrent
thing that I heard when I was interviewing these CEOs and near CEOs who were mentees in this program that I was involved in. And that was, you we would talk about the current mentoring they were receiving, what was working, what wasn't, ⁓ what kinds of support and expertise were they getting. And then after we talked at great length, then I would say, so tell me, how did this mentoring relationship or if it was current, how was this mentoring
relationship similar to or different from other mentoring you had in the past. And Laurie, I can't tell you how many times one of these mentees, mostly but not exclusively men, would say, no, I've never had a mentor before. And so I said, really?
Have you ever had conversations with somebody who was a sounding board for you? Oh yeah, all the time. Or somebody who would connect you with other people in the street? Oh yeah, all the time. Or somebody who, you you had a bad day or a bad experience and you could just like unload and then, yeah, all the time. And I'm like, what I found, especially going back as I started working on mentoring, my gosh, 15, 20 years ago, that in some circles, the word mentoring,
almost had a remedial flavor to it. Like if you weren't doing your job well, they would send you to a mentor to get better and do your job better, which is unfortunate because that's really not what mentoring is all about. You don't go get one when all hell breaks loose. You have one throughout or multiple as you said, throughout the entirety of your career because different elements of your career are going to throw you curve balls at different times. And you're going to
need different people in your board of advisors to speak to. And so what happens in a good situation, I think, is you have this cadre of people that you can count on. But depending on what you're facing at the moment, numbers one and three will be really present in your life, but two, four, and five will not. And then over time, they'll shift positions and priorities. Sometimes you gently get rid of a mentor or celebrate, I've learned everything that I could possibly
learned from you. Thank you so much. Let's chat every now and again, but I'm going to free you up to mentor somebody else. so that that pruning is also necessary. that diversity, as you mentioned, is critical, but the pruning is necessary as well.
Laurie Baedke (14:11)
That's a great framing and I think so incredibly important. And it actually aligns with where I was intending to take us next, which is just a curiosity over the increasing pace of change in life, in society, in industry. And it does make me wonder if we are going to see or we're already seeing a shift in mentorship where those individuals that used to be a CEO 10 or 20 or more years ago.
may not actually continue to have their finger on the pulse of the dynamics of the contemporary organization in a way that they may have been able to sustain in decades or a generation or two past.
Suzanne de Janasz (14:53)
Well, yes, the short answer is right. ⁓ And it's incumbent upon us.
to be willing to recognize and know what we know and know what we don't know and be willing to ask for help, right? I mean, you know, again, it shouldn't be when all hell breaks loose that we go, my gosh, who do I know who can help me through this? And so really thinking about what is it that I ⁓ am struggling like, for example, AI, right? What is the role of AI in organizations? Well, that depends on whom you ask and what day of the
week it is, right? And so even, and I'm sure you're aware, Laurie, ⁓ even in the space of leadership development, there is an increasingly ⁓ topical role for AI in coaching and in trying things out, in understanding who else is doing what I'm doing and how can I learn from them. So not all coaching and mentoring is necessarily one on one, right? It might just be, hey, I'm watching what Satya Nadella is doing.
and I'm going to model my actions after him because I respect him as a leader. So not everybody is even aware that they may be mentoring others in that sort of role modeling capacity. But you know, what I have found in my career is
when you get the courage to ask, most people will be there and will offer you their time. And you know why that is? Because they
they
know they never would have gotten to where they are without being on the shoulders of some of the people who have helped them along the way. So there's this reciprocity that exists in our mentoring mindset.
Laurie Baedke (16:45)
Yes, oh, I so wholeheartedly agree. And I often tell individuals when I'm encouraging individuals to seek out those informational interviews that are a precursor to perhaps assessing for that fit that might be a potential future mentor relationship, the biggest barrier that keeps most of us from making that ask is that we know that everyone is supremely busy, and especially individuals.
who have the type of wisdom and learned and earned experience that we can benefit from, they are incredibly busy and we don't want to be a burden. But my encouragement to them is that most people thoroughly enjoy mentorship and giving of and sharing of their wisdom and learned experience because they are the beneficiary of so many other generous individuals who have poured into them.
I often say, and so much of the work that I do is in medicine. And so I'll have individuals who I would say, so if you had a junior faculty member or a trainee who asked you for a spot of your time and they did it gracefully and graciously and with plenty of advanced notice and with a lot of clarity about what they wanted to pick your brain about, would you want to share your time with that individual? And they almost always say, of course, yes. And I said,
Well, the same is true when that reciprocity that exists so much of it is, you know, the paying it forward or as Walt Whitman said, you know, the gift goes to the giver so often and it can be a pocket of brightness and goodness in the midst of someone else, of busy executives, really demanding or really difficult work as well.
Suzanne de Janasz (18:27)
Well, and the research is really clear in psychology. They call it helping behavior, that when we engage in helping behavior, good things happen to us physiologically. By the way, I wanted to jump back to something you said about, you know, busy executives in the healthcare industry. Some years ago, ⁓ I had my students and I still do engage in mentoring relationships. They get into one of my classes and I tell them, listen, you're going to
Laurie Baedke (18:33)
Yes.
Yes.
Suzanne de Janasz (18:57)
learn a lot from one another, maybe you'll learn a thing or two from me, but in addition I want to augment the class and require you to start up a conversation with somebody and I'll give them some criteria because I don't want them to be like you know the buddy that graduated last year and who's also in their fraternity right? Somebody who has been there and done that 10 years, has profit-loss responsibility, has actual direct reports and isn't just a manager and name for example.
And one of my students connected with the then CEO of a hospital in a rural area in central Virginia. And to your point about helping and how helping feels good, so at the end of the class, I sent an email through my students to forward to their mentors and basically express my appreciation. Thank you so much for engaging with this student. You know, I know your time is valuable. They've gotten so much out of it, et cetera.
Well, this one person, I won't name his name, ⁓ he wrote back to me, he's like, thank you. ⁓ no, thank you. He said, one of the things that I got so much value out of was by having this person ask me questions about why do I do this or have I ever thought about that, et cetera, it helped me, and this was his words exactly, it helped me identify the FHPs, the future historic policies for my hospital.
So in other words, having somebody hold up the mirror in some way, right, or just asking, hey, that's an interesting policy. Where did that come from? And how well does it serve you? It was like, huh, it no longer serves me. And now that's a future historic policy. Great. I just thought fabulous that that was worth its weight in gold.
Laurie Baedke (20:51)
Yes. ⁓
that's beautiful. I love that example. OK, so mentorship at this level, at the CEO level, isn't transactional. It shouldn't be at any level, but it's relational. It's deeply personal. So what makes a CEO mentor relationship work or fail at the highest levels?
Suzanne de Janasz (21:14)
Trust, first and foremost. Let me say a little bit more about that. Often when I'm talking with people who either don't have a lot of experience or don't have that known experience about having had mentors, they think first that, ⁓ my boss is my mentor. And I'm like,
I mean sure, your boss can help you, can provide some important information that you don't have to read in the employee manual, but you really don't want to have your boss as your mentor. And part of the reason is because the whole point of mentorship is learning. And if you're afraid that your boss is going to hold your weaknesses, your failures, the things that scare you against you when it comes to promotion,
time, raises, etc. You're not going to be honest. You're going to give a sugar-coated story. You're going to give a cleansed story about what's going on. And so if your direct boss is your mentor, where's the learning going to be? And so when you go at least step one, if not outside the organization completely, there is a place where trust can form because you're not worried about them telling
your secrets, your stories, your failures to somebody else, but rather, ⁓ tell me more about that situation. Let's see what we can learn from it. Similarly, when you become vulnerable in that transaction and that relationship, that tends to create vulnerability on their side. Well, I'm going to tell you something. so whether stated, which I think is a good idea or not, there is an implied confidentiality in these
conversations. And so there are plenty of things that make those relationships work, Laurie, but I have to put trust at the top of the list, especially when you're talking about CEOs and the kinds of issues that they're dealing with. Without trust, that relationship will not work.
Laurie Baedke (23:23)
Yeah. ⁓ yes, yes and yes. And I think one of the things that we all, all humans struggle with and continues to be a challenge even at the highest levels of executive leadership is some of that self-doubt, some of the cognitive ⁓ biases and phenomenons that cause our minds to work against us, or even the reality that high achievers and high-achieving professionals wrestle with imposter phenomenon.
When you think about the benefit of that vulnerability and sharing, and when leaders that are incredibly credible and accomplished share with vulnerability some of their stumbles or fumbles, it is so powerful in normalizing the hardship that is inevitable for everyone, because no one comes through life or a role unscathed.
especially in our current reality where the pace of change is overwhelming at times and the complexities and the challenges or headwinds that one might be facing. I think that trust and that vulnerability, while it absolutely takes an investment of time and time, especially for the busiest, highest ⁓ executives is incredibly rare and valuable, it's an absolute must.
Suzanne de Janasz (24:32)
you
Laurie Baedke (24:48)
I'm curious if I were to kind of shift us to the ROI of investing. Your data shows improved decision making and performance. So what do mentors actually help CEOs to avoid or rightfully pursue?
Suzanne de Janasz (25:08)
So the ROI question is a great question. In fact, one of the CEOs, excuse me, at the time near CEO, but currently he's a CEO, said to me when I asked the question, because let me again back up and sort of broaden the context for a moment, mentoring is one avenue.
for the development of CEOs, right? It's not the only one. And so some organizations will send them to Harvard or MIT or INSEAD in France for a week-long management development program or a multi-week program. But who has time for a multi-week program? And not only that, there is not so much of the just-in-time learning that happens as it does in these one-on-one conversations. So again, let me be clear. It's not either or.
It's both and. And so there are a lot of ways of learning, including taking on an assignment or a role that is really not something you've done before. It's a great opportunity for learning. So there are a lot of ways that we can learn or that senior people can learn. I just want to make sure that, you know, we don't talk about mentoring as the only one, but in those mentoring relationships, one of the things that I think is really essential is at the start of that relationship,
is to have a conversation about what is and is not on the table. ⁓ know, who is going to learn? Like, for example, if HR, back to the ROI, if HR, now, let me also back up. A lot of mentoring is free, right? But there are some organizations like the one I did this research for that actually charged for the process of, you know, making these matches between these CEOs and near CEOs of top organizations with those
who were in those roles 15, 20 years ago. And so it was, I won't get into the actual amount of money, but it was a non-insignificant number.
So this one person I was talking to and we're asking about the ROI, he said, well, they could send me to MIT. They could send me to London Business School, et cetera. Not only is that ⁓ expensive, but what is the cost of making a mistake? What is the cost of not knowing what I'm heading into? And what is the value of this CEO's ear and willingness to have this conversation with me? And he said, it was beer money.
And what he meant, I love this quote, what he meant by that was the relative cost of a beer.
versus what you got out of that was the same kind of thing. That this investment that the company made in enabling him to have not one but two very senior people to talk to was the equivalent of beer money. And so while I can't sit here, Laurie, and tell you, you know, it's a multiplier of 4.6, I can't tell you that, but there are, as you said,
mistakes that would not have been made ⁓ had it not been for the coaching and the counsel of somebody who had been there and done that, ⁓ the ability to, as you said, not feel like an imposter walking into a room when you're trying to get your company public and so you're making this big IPO presentation. I mean, there are so many things that if you've never done them before, the ability to not only present but present confidently.
and get that feedback and achieve this important milestone for you and the organization, these are things that if you've not done them, you need that ability to talk with someone who's been there and done that. So I don't know if I've answered the question completely about ROI, but it's hard to nail that down, to be honest.
Laurie Baedke (29:02)
Indeed, indeed. Well, and as I've looked at so much of the research around mentorship and sponsorship, there is compelling evidence that both intersect powerfully with wellbeing and resilience. And for CEOs, the ability to sustain the demands of the role, the importance of connection and social connection or community specifically ⁓ cannot be overstated. And so I'm curious what your observations or experiences tell you.
about that important fact.
Suzanne de Janasz (29:36)
Funny, I wish that the first thing that came to my mind is absolutely all mentors are great role models and they show their mentees ways of balancing, you know, work and family. I can't say that. ⁓ Some have, some have not. And I also will say,
in my observation and then people that I've spoken with and coached and actually interviewed for some of the research I've done, there is a little bit of a gender difference. So for example, while there are, as we know, far fewer women than men in CEO positions, there are also far fewer, no surprise, fewer still.
women who are even more senior to that available as mentors. So I don't want to sound old fashioned when I say this, but...
We know from the research there is a marriage penalty for women and a marriage bonus for men. So not all CEO men have wives that stay at home. I'm not gonna say that, that's not true. But the research is, again, is very clear about how marriage helps or hurts men and women in their careers. So if a senior woman is speaking with a very senior man as a CEO, it's really,
easy, all you gotta do is X, Y, Z, that's fine when you have A, those resources actually there for you and B, you don't have a set of societal expectations where you are a bad mother if you're working full time, you're an uncommitted employee if you have children at home, like you just, know, the Barbie monologue if you will. So there's also a gender difference that, you know, I don't know, I know we don't want to talk about it.
days, but it's real. And it does explain why so many women have left the workforce, both during COVID and even now as well, because of some of the things that are going on in the country at this moment.
Laurie Baedke (31:46)
Indeed, indeed. my goodness, excellent points. Well, our time is running short, but I have one last question I'd love for you to address before we close. If there's one mindset shift that you wish more CEOs would make about mentorship, what would it be?
Suzanne de Janasz (32:04)
first thing that comes to mind is to recognize that this is part of their growth and development.
and that it's not remedial. So to see talking with those who've been there and done that as just as important as going off to a program or sitting in a webinar or even their executive coach, that this is to be effective as a senior leader. And as you said, to be effective in balancing the many demands in the workplace and beyond to be able to survive and
thrive as a human being, not just as a CEO. So it's that mindset that we need this conversation, we need the support, we need the camaraderie, and whether they are a plus one or plus two level or as you said peer, ⁓ all of the above to the degree that you can.
put that in your calendar and prioritize it in the same way we all say, I don't have time for the gym. Well, we all have 168 hours in a week. How we spend that time is up to us. And so you put that time in your calendar and you guard it with the same importance that you guard your weekly standup meeting with your senior leaders.
Laurie Baedke (33:23)
indeed. Well, Dr. de Janasz, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for ⁓ joining us to share of your research and just for all of the important work that you're putting out into the world. I'm delighted, I'm honored, and I can't wait to share this with my audience.
Suzanne de Janasz (33:38)
Thank you, Laurie, and thanks for the thought provoking questions.
